Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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LTD concern could be that IB was unsafe to fly from his perspective but I suppose that the IB crew had a better view from inside their plane better than LTD from inside his.
They also should have had somebody talking to them during pushback and startup (I usually have a ground engineer) that could have risen some concern if their wing was really covered in snow.
The IB crew, for a reason that could have been perfectly valid, like having already deiced their A340, didn't obey his advice, infuriating LTD.
LTD comes here and spits poison over three fellow professionals, the herd follows suit with no clue of what really happened.
IF they really taxied and took-off covered in snow they deserve more training in winter operations,
BUT we only have LTD words here, that's why I'm asking if they are to be considered reliable.
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@All posters
We still dont really know what happened - just remember that
Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs
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Oh God, has this ever went on and on...
1.Light Twin Driver did a job that everyone else should; being an airman and showing an airmanship.
2.Captain of IB is a Captain with a reason; years of training, years of flying, years of upgrading and thousands of hours on type. He is the ultimate person to decide If that flight will take a place that day.
3.Company's OM specify the de-icing or anti-icing procedures and maybe that day the Captain has met the requirements and despite all of us being overwhelmed over this case the Captain Rodriguez was quite happy and relaxed to not undertake the icing procedures.
4. If you fly for a flag carrier It doesn't mean you are a better or a worst pilot than someone who flies for Ryanair for example, but it is up to an airmanship that makes a clear distinguishment from "a pilot" and "the pilot"!
I support the cowboys in this case.
Over and out!
1.Light Twin Driver did a job that everyone else should; being an airman and showing an airmanship.
2.Captain of IB is a Captain with a reason; years of training, years of flying, years of upgrading and thousands of hours on type. He is the ultimate person to decide If that flight will take a place that day.
3.Company's OM specify the de-icing or anti-icing procedures and maybe that day the Captain has met the requirements and despite all of us being overwhelmed over this case the Captain Rodriguez was quite happy and relaxed to not undertake the icing procedures.
4. If you fly for a flag carrier It doesn't mean you are a better or a worst pilot than someone who flies for Ryanair for example, but it is up to an airmanship that makes a clear distinguishment from "a pilot" and "the pilot"!
I support the cowboys in this case.
Over and out!
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his professional opinion
Just by naming and blaming and so easily to identify a flightcrew from another airline, for me is just a sign that he is totally u n p r o f e s s i o n a l
If the Spaniards are the Cowboys, is he the self-made Sheriff or what?
Finally the aircraft took-off and landed safely. So, where is the problem.
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There was not a lot of snow at KBOS on December 2. The climatological record for December 2.
THE BOSTON CLIMATE SUMMARY FOR DECEMBER 2 2007
TEMPERATURE (F)
YESTERDAY [Dec 2]
MAXIMUM 28 1159 PM
MINIMUM 18 430 AM
PRECIPITATION (IN)
YESTERDAY 0.04
SNOWFALL (IN)
YESTERDAY 0.3
WIND (MPH)
RESULTANT WIND SPEED 5 RESULTANT WIND DIRECTION W (290)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 17 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (330)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 23 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (310)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 7.2
WEATHER CONDITIONS
THE FOLLOWING WEATHER WAS RECORDED YESTERDAY.
LT FREEZING RAIN
SNOW
LIGHT SNOW
SLEET
FOG
HAZE
Source:
http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=box
The radar image on post #110 shows very light snow, perhaps no more than flurries or virga at KBOS. Though the image appears to be a base reflectivity radar snapshot and not a composite reflectivity snapshot. (From Boston north, the radar near KPWM will sometimes fill in the precipitation from the airport north, but that would be a composite radar image.)
THE BOSTON CLIMATE SUMMARY FOR DECEMBER 2 2007
TEMPERATURE (F)
YESTERDAY [Dec 2]
MAXIMUM 28 1159 PM
MINIMUM 18 430 AM
PRECIPITATION (IN)
YESTERDAY 0.04
SNOWFALL (IN)
YESTERDAY 0.3
WIND (MPH)
RESULTANT WIND SPEED 5 RESULTANT WIND DIRECTION W (290)
HIGHEST WIND SPEED 17 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION NW (330)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 23 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION NW (310)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 7.2
WEATHER CONDITIONS
THE FOLLOWING WEATHER WAS RECORDED YESTERDAY.
LT FREEZING RAIN
SNOW
LIGHT SNOW
SLEET
FOG
HAZE
Source:
http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=box
The radar image on post #110 shows very light snow, perhaps no more than flurries or virga at KBOS. Though the image appears to be a base reflectivity radar snapshot and not a composite reflectivity snapshot. (From Boston north, the radar near KPWM will sometimes fill in the precipitation from the airport north, but that would be a composite radar image.)
Last edited by SaturnV; 8th Dec 2007 at 20:04. Reason: clarify radar term
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Goodness there are some real issues here with the 'Latin' types (as so perceptively pointed out previously). Saying the aircraft took off and landed safely so where is the problem doesn't cut it. The guy got lucky. Next time maybe he won't be. We're not in the business of being lucky, we're in the business of being safe. Is it a rumour? If you listen to the tape I'd say it's pretty much a fact the guy had snow on his wings, unless you think LTD was making it all up and lying to Boston ATC.
This thread is spookily similar to the one on te TAP A310 flyby. Anyone impartial can review the evidence for what it is and see the implicit failings, yet any response from Spain, Italy or Portugal is limited to attacking the original poster, questioning his truthfulness and generally trying to hide from the facts. One can only hope that sort of attitude is not indicative of the industry as a whole in those nations.
This thread is spookily similar to the one on te TAP A310 flyby. Anyone impartial can review the evidence for what it is and see the implicit failings, yet any response from Spain, Italy or Portugal is limited to attacking the original poster, questioning his truthfulness and generally trying to hide from the facts. One can only hope that sort of attitude is not indicative of the industry as a whole in those nations.
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In Canada, after the Dryden accident we went from one extreme to the other. To the point that now, the captain is the last guy to decide whether to get de/anti-ice or not. Just about anybody within a 10 km circle from the airport seems to know better than the front end crew on this.
I'm supportive of the cowboys on this one.
I'm supportive of the cowboys on this one.
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It seems that many UK (northern way of life, as you call it) come direct from the NASA academy or achieved their license flying the Discovery!!!
Was anybody (excepting LTD) in Boston that day?????
NO! So what the hell are you discussing????
Should any plane T.O. with snow or ice? - I'm absolutely sure they shouldn't. No possibility of discussion!
Should a pilot post the number and airline of a flight that has done a mistake (or not) on a public forum? NO! LTD did an awful job!
Should any pilot initiate a National Crusade against Iberia - Spanish pilots? - Of course not! We are coleagues up there. NOT ENEMIES!! Doesn't care where we come from!!!!
I don't know how many CRM courses do you get on BA....but maybe they are not enough, or maybe you are still in Cockpit RM or Cabin RM! Open your eyes....you are not the aviation.....you are just an small part of it!
Was anybody (excepting LTD) in Boston that day?????
NO! So what the hell are you discussing????Should any plane T.O. with snow or ice? -
I'm absolutely sure they shouldn't. No possibility of discussion!Should a pilot post the number and airline of a flight that has done a mistake (or not) on a public forum?
NO! LTD did an awful job! Should any pilot initiate a National Crusade against Iberia - Spanish pilots? - Of course not! We are coleagues up there. NOT ENEMIES!! Doesn't care where we come from!!!!
I don't know how many CRM courses do you get on BA....but maybe they are not enough, or maybe you are still in Cockpit RM or Cabin RM! Open your eyes....you are not the aviation.....you are just an small part of it!
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One additional point on the amount of snow recorded at KBOS on December 2.
Often, a ratio of 10:1 for snow : precipitable water amount is used (assuming air temperature of about -3 Celsius); the ratio is higher when the temperature is lower (such as -8 Celsius), and the ratio is less if the temperature is near or at freezing.
The 0.04 inches of precipitable water corresponds rather nicely with the measured 0.3 inch total snow amount reported for the airport for the entire 24 hour period.
The reported wind direction at KBOS, from the northwest, would tend to support a lighter or fluffier snow than if the wind had been from the east or northeast and off the water.
______________________________________
Air Florida took off in the midst of a continuing snowstorm, and after KDCA had been closed for about 90 minutes so the runway could be plowed.
Often, a ratio of 10:1 for snow : precipitable water amount is used (assuming air temperature of about -3 Celsius); the ratio is higher when the temperature is lower (such as -8 Celsius), and the ratio is less if the temperature is near or at freezing.
The 0.04 inches of precipitable water corresponds rather nicely with the measured 0.3 inch total snow amount reported for the airport for the entire 24 hour period.
The reported wind direction at KBOS, from the northwest, would tend to support a lighter or fluffier snow than if the wind had been from the east or northeast and off the water.
______________________________________
Air Florida took off in the midst of a continuing snowstorm, and after KDCA had been closed for about 90 minutes so the runway could be plowed.
Last edited by SaturnV; 9th Dec 2007 at 01:14. Reason: get rid of emotion caused by coding
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Oceanic Clearance - unfortunately you appear to be reinforcing the previously stated views that pilots from Southern Europe appear to be more concerned about avoiding personal embarassment than improving flight safety. You wrote:
We are now discussing an official ATC recording of somebody alerting an Iberia flight, and Boston ATC, of a potentially lethal flight condition and a breach of FAA regulations. Now you either think LTD was lying to Boston ATC, for some unknown motive, knowing that those lies would be recorded, or LTD was genuinely reporting snow on the Iberia wings, in which case there is something wrong with the operational procedures for that particular flight.
Very good. It's good to hear the view that flight with contaminated wings is a bad thing rather than the view that because they got away with it it must be OK.
If you had bothered to read the full thread, which you clearly haven't, you would know that LTD did not post the flight number. He named Iberia, which is perfectly reasonable in my book. I believe it was Dinger X who identified the particular flight number after reviewing the Boston ATC R/T recordings, and the moderators who changed the thread title to identify the flight. LTD did a fine job in alerting the Iberia crew to a potentially dangerous condition, regardless of whether they chose to act upon the information or not.
It certainly doesn't matter where people come from, but if a particular airline adopts a cavalier, if not outright dangerous approach to de-icing then it's fair game to alert everybody else in the business to their practices. This industry is not a secret sect where bad practices are swept under the carpet. You might also like to consider that Iberia aren't having a great run of things on the A340 fleet at the moment. Two incidents at Quito and now a potential catastrophe at Boston would suggest to any independent observer that there is a possibility that operating practices maybe aren't what they should be. It took a hull loss at Toronto before Air France accepted that they could do things better and they made positive efforts to identify best practice in the industry and learn from it. Will Iberia be taking an objective look at how they operate and identify what has gone wrong on these occasions?
Interesting to see your closing comments follow the traditional Latin pattern of attacking the messenger. Does it matter if the reporter was BA? Had the information come from a Lufthansa or a United pilot would it have changed it's significance? CRM has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. This is not about massaging the ego of the Iberia crew. This is about alerting another crew to a the unsuitable flight state of their aircraft. Why the Iberia crew chose to depart with snow on their wings perhaps would make for an interesting CRM study.
Was anybody (excepting LTD) in Boston that day????? NO! So what the hell are you discussing????
Should any plane T.O. with snow or ice? - I'm absolutely sure they shouldn't. No possibility of discussion!
Should a pilot post the number and airline of a flight that has done a mistake (or not) on a public forum? NO! LTD did an awful job!
Should any pilot initiate a National Crusade against Iberia - Spanish pilots? - Of course not! We are coleagues up there. NOT ENEMIES!! Doesn't care where we come from!!!!
I don't know how many CRM courses do you get on BA....but maybe they are not enough, or maybe you are still in Cockpit RM or Cabin RM! Open your eyes....you are not the aviation.....you are just an small part of it!
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I am seriously upset at the way some of you slap the face of IB flight crews and doubt the professionalism of pilots of different "cultures" which are not yours. Is it another form of, shall I spell it in the clear, pure racism and prejudice...?
xxx
I suppose that, as I fly for the flag carrier of Argentina, and "if" or "when" we would have failed to install "snow tyres" (to spell British tires), to taxi out for departure in MAD, we would, the next day, become notorious, on PPRuNe forums, for having (dared) to taxi-out without installing "snow chains" on our 747 body gear units...? (Or, is it BA procedure to install such on wing gear units as well)... I assume, that you would not fail (between your cups of tea - with a slice of lemon...) to go on 121.5 to advise us "Latinos" of our lack of airmanship.
xxx
First of all, my Anglo-Saxon friends, who (seem to) despise pilots of certain nations, shall we say Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey... do not forget lovely South America... that you know very little about these people.
xxx
Speaking of Argentina, we have pages and pages of names such as Jones or Smith, O´Neil or Shilliday in our phone books in Buenos Aires, many have fair skin and blue eyes... and yes, have a "Spanish" accent when they speak their perfect English... We also have many German names among our pilots, such as Haas or Kaufman... I expect then, to hear that they are ex-Nazis (yet their parents escaped Germany 1933-1939 for good reasons) and we also have the largest population of Jews after New York City. Yiddish language is common here in Buenos Aires.
xxx
So, accuse the Argentinos to be "stupid Latinos" when we have to repeat a garbled clearance from ORD. For my part, I am a native of Belgium, and worked for PanAm 1969-1991 (in these days with a US passport), so, if any bad habits of my part, you know where I got them from...
xxx
In this day and age, when many pilots of "nationality X" have a career for airline of "country Y", stop associating the flag of an airplane (and so called "regional culture") with the nationality of the flight crew. Who knows, the captain of that IB-6166 BOS/MAD was a Cardiff boy, ex "Cymru" pilot.
xxx
No, Japanese pilots do not do "harakiri" (sepukko) after a missed approach, and not all Saudi pilots say "Insh'Allah" after the estimate for "30º West" on the Atlantic routes on Gander frequencies. All pilots of the world are same nice guys who love flying and take pride in their job.
xxx
A few years ago, a Delta L-1011 taxied-out for departure, here at Buenos Aires SAEZ/EZE with gear pins still in the main gear (red flags hanging near the wheel wells). I was behind them, and told them about the problem. Their answer was "Roger that, Argentina 1234, going back to check it, thanks a bunch, owe you a beer" - I acknowledged by saying "10-4, good buddy".
xxx
It was not necessary to report this on PPRuNe and, get 250 opinions on how bad the Yanks are... The faulty idiots were likely to be Argentine ramp staff on duty to launch their flight.
xxx
Never got that beer they owe me... although I often go to their hotel bar (Intercontinental) in Buenos Aires. Maybe I should go to visit the United guys at the Sheraton... Just telling them of a Delta problem would earn me a beer...?
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I suppose that, as I fly for the flag carrier of Argentina, and "if" or "when" we would have failed to install "snow tyres" (to spell British tires), to taxi out for departure in MAD, we would, the next day, become notorious, on PPRuNe forums, for having (dared) to taxi-out without installing "snow chains" on our 747 body gear units...? (Or, is it BA procedure to install such on wing gear units as well)... I assume, that you would not fail (between your cups of tea - with a slice of lemon...) to go on 121.5 to advise us "Latinos" of our lack of airmanship.
xxx
First of all, my Anglo-Saxon friends, who (seem to) despise pilots of certain nations, shall we say Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey... do not forget lovely South America... that you know very little about these people.
xxx
Speaking of Argentina, we have pages and pages of names such as Jones or Smith, O´Neil or Shilliday in our phone books in Buenos Aires, many have fair skin and blue eyes... and yes, have a "Spanish" accent when they speak their perfect English... We also have many German names among our pilots, such as Haas or Kaufman... I expect then, to hear that they are ex-Nazis (yet their parents escaped Germany 1933-1939 for good reasons) and we also have the largest population of Jews after New York City. Yiddish language is common here in Buenos Aires.
xxx
So, accuse the Argentinos to be "stupid Latinos" when we have to repeat a garbled clearance from ORD. For my part, I am a native of Belgium, and worked for PanAm 1969-1991 (in these days with a US passport), so, if any bad habits of my part, you know where I got them from...
xxx
In this day and age, when many pilots of "nationality X" have a career for airline of "country Y", stop associating the flag of an airplane (and so called "regional culture") with the nationality of the flight crew. Who knows, the captain of that IB-6166 BOS/MAD was a Cardiff boy, ex "Cymru" pilot.
xxx
No, Japanese pilots do not do "harakiri" (sepukko) after a missed approach, and not all Saudi pilots say "Insh'Allah" after the estimate for "30º West" on the Atlantic routes on Gander frequencies. All pilots of the world are same nice guys who love flying and take pride in their job.
xxx
A few years ago, a Delta L-1011 taxied-out for departure, here at Buenos Aires SAEZ/EZE with gear pins still in the main gear (red flags hanging near the wheel wells). I was behind them, and told them about the problem. Their answer was "Roger that, Argentina 1234, going back to check it, thanks a bunch, owe you a beer" - I acknowledged by saying "10-4, good buddy".
xxx
It was not necessary to report this on PPRuNe and, get 250 opinions on how bad the Yanks are... The faulty idiots were likely to be Argentine ramp staff on duty to launch their flight.
xxx
Never got that beer they owe me... although I often go to their hotel bar (Intercontinental) in Buenos Aires. Maybe I should go to visit the United guys at the Sheraton... Just telling them of a Delta problem would earn me a beer...?
xxx
Happy contrails
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Well, I said yesterday:
I am going to have to change my mind about the posts since then. We have a dozen addressing status (including professional behavior), 5 sceptic on the facts, 2 reporting facts, and only 1, maybe 2, on safety itself.
Those supporting the Iberia crew should please remember that we are talking about a crew who apparently violated applicable aviation regulations concerning safety of flight without having a clear safety-of-flight reason to do so. How on earth can you justify that sort of behavior?
PBL
Originally Posted by PBL
.... count up the number of serious posts about deicing and flying with ice, and the number of serious posts about status ......... We will see that the serious "safety" posts vastly outweigh the serious "status" posts. So a view that the discussion is less about safety than about status would be simply wrong.
Those supporting the Iberia crew should please remember that we are talking about a crew who apparently violated applicable aviation regulations concerning safety of flight without having a clear safety-of-flight reason to do so. How on earth can you justify that sort of behavior?
PBL
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Originally Posted by Lucifer
But we do - it is on those tapes. Listen.
Besides the tapes - we have LTD's account of the events - is he truthful? I personally think he is - but I really don’t know – after all he is an anonymous poster on a public forum, so I don’t know him, I have absolutely no idea what might have motivated him to start a thread like this.
But yes I believe that he saw Iberia with what he perceived to be snow on the wings – he did the right thing by bringing this fact to Iberia’s attention via Ground.
Iberia took a little while to get back to ground after having received BA’s relayed message – what took place in that time? We don’t know!
What happened to bring the two pilots in agreement that no de icing was required? We don’t know!
What other information was passed on to the Iberia crew, by ground engineers, deicing coordinators etc.? We don’t know!
Could it be that they got bad information from a source they trusted more than the BA crew? We don’t know!
So I still think it is wrong to blame the crew – as we don’t know all the factors that affected them at the time. Maybe their only fault was that they trusted the wrong guy!
We do know that they probably took off with snow on the wings – and that they were lucky.
Last edited by DK_FCI; 9th Dec 2007 at 07:17.
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I never perceived any slander toward a particular country or race here, maybe what has some upset is the fact that the poster is addressing the whole airline as cowboys, never a good footing for a sensible discussion. Perhaps a better name for this thread could be "Safety Issue?"
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Great thread!
Take some time to listen to the ATC tapes.
Not just the small segment in question but 30 mins before and an hour after.
Lots of de-iceing going on. In fact delivery at one point delivered one aircraft who replied "not going to push back yet as the queue for de-ice is 45 mins"
(not the exact words.....)
Several thousand gallons of expensive de-icer was sprayed around that night.
Every other aircraft was de-iceing, listen to the audio!!!
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2007-2330Z.mp3
Not just the small segment in question but 30 mins before and an hour after.
Lots of de-iceing going on. In fact delivery at one point delivered one aircraft who replied "not going to push back yet as the queue for de-ice is 45 mins"
(not the exact words.....)
Several thousand gallons of expensive de-icer was sprayed around that night.
Every other aircraft was de-iceing, listen to the audio!!!
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2007-2330Z.mp3
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Fair point, DK_FCI.
What we know in addition to what we don't know is that
- the airplane on blocked at 15.41 EST and off blocked at 18.28 EST
- that *all* other airplanes at that time were deiced, which is an indication that no de-icing is worth to discuss
What we know in addition to what we don't know is that
- the airplane on blocked at 15.41 EST and off blocked at 18.28 EST
- that *all* other airplanes at that time were deiced, which is an indication that no de-icing is worth to discuss
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after all he is an anonymous poster on a public forum
P.S. It would be really great if all aircraft were fitted with the same type of radio that the British Airways aircraft have.
The quality is excellent, you don't even need to hear his callsign, you KNOW who it is in the later recordings.
Last edited by soggy_cabbage; 9th Dec 2007 at 08:51. Reason: Radio...
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This notion that the thread is somehow a British vs Latin theme is getting ridiculous. What on earth has nationality got to do with anything in this instance?
A crew observed an aircraft to be in an unsafe condition for flight, in their opinion, and they informed that aircraft's crew. The original poster, along with a number of following posters of varying nationality, seem somewhat surprised at the reaction of the crew after they had been informed. The fact that LTD may be British seems completely irrelevant to me, or am I missing something?
BelArgUSA, is this not exactly the kind of
that you are accusing our British friends of? I have found most of your other posts on this website to be balanced and well informed. This one I find very very disappointing Sir.
Well said. Has it actually been stated here that LTD is British?
A crew observed an aircraft to be in an unsafe condition for flight, in their opinion, and they informed that aircraft's crew. The original poster, along with a number of following posters of varying nationality, seem somewhat surprised at the reaction of the crew after they had been informed. The fact that LTD may be British seems completely irrelevant to me, or am I missing something?
First of all, my Anglo-Saxon friends, who (seem to) despise pilots of certain nations
I assume, that you would not fail (between your cups of tea - with a slice of lemon...) to go on 121.5 to advise us "Latinos" of our lack of airmanship.
pure racism and prejudice
stop associating the flag of an airplane (and so called "regional culture") with the nationality of the flight crew. Who knows, the captain of that IB-6166 BOS/MAD was a Cardiff boy, ex "Cymru" pilot.
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Hi.
If I replied to the post it was because I read words as "machos" xd xd xd it really sound freak to latin people when non latin people say that word. Is there "macho" actitude in some latin pilots? Could be... but you can find this actitude in pilots from other nations and no body will say they are machos... I am working for a nordic company and I feel this feelings from the nord to the south.
If it does not matter where they are from? Why do you high light the fact that I am Spanish? We are pilots.
Regarding safety... I can not belive they put the safety of the 340 pax under the imminent threat of a frozen wing... no way. For sure that crew new what they did.
If I replied to the post it was because I read words as "machos" xd xd xd it really sound freak to latin people when non latin people say that word. Is there "macho" actitude in some latin pilots? Could be... but you can find this actitude in pilots from other nations and no body will say they are machos... I am working for a nordic company and I feel this feelings from the nord to the south.
If it does not matter where they are from? Why do you high light the fact that I am Spanish? We are pilots.
Regarding safety... I can not belive they put the safety of the 340 pax under the imminent threat of a frozen wing... no way. For sure that crew new what they did.
