Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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Nope...Sorry...Incorrect!!!!
Sorry gents,
This IS NOT THE CAPTAIN'S CALL (whether or not to be de-iced / anti-iced with snow/ice on the aircraft's lift-producing and control surfaces).
We have:
1. Aircraft certification criteria (The aircraft is not certified by the manufacturer to take off like this.)
2. Regulatory constraints (I don't know about Spain, but in the U.S., this is illegal as XXXX.)
3. Company SOP. (I've never worked for a company that had in its manuals permission to take off like that.)
The only time a captain's decision comes into play is when, FIRST, all three of the above are satisfied AND STILL the captain is not satisfied that things are safe. In other words, the captain has the authority to say 'No' despite the fact that 'all the boxes are checked'...but hasn't the authority to say 'yes' when one or more of the above authorities say 'No'.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
This IS NOT THE CAPTAIN'S CALL (whether or not to be de-iced / anti-iced with snow/ice on the aircraft's lift-producing and control surfaces).
We have:
1. Aircraft certification criteria (The aircraft is not certified by the manufacturer to take off like this.)
2. Regulatory constraints (I don't know about Spain, but in the U.S., this is illegal as XXXX.)
3. Company SOP. (I've never worked for a company that had in its manuals permission to take off like that.)
The only time a captain's decision comes into play is when, FIRST, all three of the above are satisfied AND STILL the captain is not satisfied that things are safe. In other words, the captain has the authority to say 'No' despite the fact that 'all the boxes are checked'...but hasn't the authority to say 'yes' when one or more of the above authorities say 'No'.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
PersonalTitle to help support PPRuNe against legal bullying.
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Thank you thank you thank you
LightTwin Driver - I'm glad people like you exist. It was suggested you should not name and shame the airline - yes you should.
So much effort and technology goes into making flight safe, yet macho actions such as the ones described here waste that effort. I am glad that my ability to choose who I fly with (and in which aircraft types I use) is considerably enhanced by free and open feedback on this forum.
All pax have the right to know which operators do stupid things, if only to embarass them into corrective action or to ensure that potenitally dangerous actions are questioned. This transparancy is desparately needed.
The quote from the NTSB guy said it all.
So thank you LTD from every pax who will ever fly on a plane by a pilot that has read this thread and has learnt. That's a lot of people....they don't care you used a strong word like cowboy, they just don't want to die from a macho act - which is what it was - and unfortunately there is sometimes a bit of a tendency to be macho in the pilot world.
So much effort and technology goes into making flight safe, yet macho actions such as the ones described here waste that effort. I am glad that my ability to choose who I fly with (and in which aircraft types I use) is considerably enhanced by free and open feedback on this forum.
All pax have the right to know which operators do stupid things, if only to embarass them into corrective action or to ensure that potenitally dangerous actions are questioned. This transparancy is desparately needed.
The quote from the NTSB guy said it all.
So thank you LTD from every pax who will ever fly on a plane by a pilot that has read this thread and has learnt. That's a lot of people....they don't care you used a strong word like cowboy, they just don't want to die from a macho act - which is what it was - and unfortunately there is sometimes a bit of a tendency to be macho in the pilot world.
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Pantload,
Good call.
There are WAY to many people on here with an over inflated impression of the captain's importance. It's not his aircraft, he simply assumes responsibility for its safety and operation within all applicable laws, regulations and procedures. Because he makes a call does not mean it cannot or should not be questioned either at the time or retrospectively.
Good call.
There are WAY to many people on here with an over inflated impression of the captain's importance. It's not his aircraft, he simply assumes responsibility for its safety and operation within all applicable laws, regulations and procedures. Because he makes a call does not mean it cannot or should not be questioned either at the time or retrospectively.
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...they are aware of the situation as far as ice is concerned and his aircraft is ready and safe. De-icing when not needed is as bad as no de-icing when needed.
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Actually, in that point, Mr. Duran has a point, although not completely accurate.
Deicing and anti-icing fluid is a somewhat viscose fluid that also decreases the effectiveness of the supercritical wing, although in a FAR LESS way than ice/snow contamination. Especially Type2 and 4 are quite viscose, but nowadays less used in Western Europe it seems.
What I would like to see is a recurrent yearly class on winter-ops, not just a meager CBT session of an hour at home, but a real classroom style day-long briefing where all aspects of winter-ops. are being repeated and where there is room for discussion.
In my opinion, at least as necessary as yearly CRM courses.
Deicing and anti-icing fluid is a somewhat viscose fluid that also decreases the effectiveness of the supercritical wing, although in a FAR LESS way than ice/snow contamination. Especially Type2 and 4 are quite viscose, but nowadays less used in Western Europe it seems.
What I would like to see is a recurrent yearly class on winter-ops, not just a meager CBT session of an hour at home, but a real classroom style day-long briefing where all aspects of winter-ops. are being repeated and where there is room for discussion.
In my opinion, at least as necessary as yearly CRM courses.
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I agree with the above post despique
Anti-icing fluid is very viscose - a couple of years age I was positioning on a BA 737 that I had watched being de-iced just before taxi-out. I had a window seat just behind the trailing edge and I watched very carefully - fluid was streaming off the wing in large quantities during the initial climbout - just as I expected. I was quite surprised though, to see fluid streams still departing the trailing edge after we had levelled off at TOC.
Last year I departed a Central European Airfield after being de-iced. After landing in the UK some 2hrs later there was still fluid dripping off the wings! I must say it surprised me.
Some years ago, I was undertaking the 'tech' part of an FAA type rating; after at least 2 hrs of continuous questions from the examiner, he asked me "what is the best way to de-ice the airplane?". I thought he was testing my knowledge of various fluid types and was uncertain what to answer - type 2 or 4 (but don't they use type 1 in the USA) etc. After a while he broke the silence with "Have the Airplane towed into a heated hangar". Obvious really and I felt rather silly.
BS
Anti-icing fluid is very viscose - a couple of years age I was positioning on a BA 737 that I had watched being de-iced just before taxi-out. I had a window seat just behind the trailing edge and I watched very carefully - fluid was streaming off the wing in large quantities during the initial climbout - just as I expected. I was quite surprised though, to see fluid streams still departing the trailing edge after we had levelled off at TOC.
Last year I departed a Central European Airfield after being de-iced. After landing in the UK some 2hrs later there was still fluid dripping off the wings! I must say it surprised me.
Some years ago, I was undertaking the 'tech' part of an FAA type rating; after at least 2 hrs of continuous questions from the examiner, he asked me "what is the best way to de-ice the airplane?". I thought he was testing my knowledge of various fluid types and was uncertain what to answer - type 2 or 4 (but don't they use type 1 in the USA) etc. After a while he broke the silence with "Have the Airplane towed into a heated hangar". Obvious really and I felt rather silly.
BS
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Originally Posted by bullshot
he asked me "what is the best way to de-ice the airplane?"............"Have the Airplane towed into a heated hangar". Obvious really and I felt rather silly.
I was in Tahoe once with an Archer in winter, after a moderately warm day, and got frost. I went into the FBO for a deice, and was introduced to a somewhat cocky mechanic who suggested he would deal with it quickly, and came out with an engine heater. I thought "this is going to be an educational experience that he seems to need". He blew it all away, said "there you are" and went back inside. I waited some, oh, three minutes, went and fetched him and asked him what he was going to do next. Then he did it properly. If I'd been the FBO, I would have had a serious scare about my insurance policy.
PBL
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This thread is a real eye-opener.
What it shows is that as a group, professional pilots are severely devoid of full scientific understanding of things that contaminate and degrade the thing that they need most - the wing.
It is also clear that even when the group does exhibit some understanding of the problem, that there is very little understanding of how to control rectification of it because of casual delegation of responsibility to people who squirt goodness knows what with varying degrees of diligence comprehension or communicative ability, coupled with a reluctance to don bad weather gear and actually get out, sometimes more than once, to get up a ladder or up in a hydraulic basket to make a direct observation-based decision.
Seems to me there's a lot of guessing that it'll be alright on the night based on the fact that it was ok last time.
I'm with despegue on the need for annual re-training (and I'd add note-swapping) on this - with ATC, airport ground ops management (the fluid purchasers/sellers) and the deicing team in the same classroom as the pilots. From what I have seen, there is far too much "going through the motions" and far too little understanding.
Going through the motions is better than not (so long as the fluid is to spec and applied properly), but I can tell you, because I have watched it do so, that some deicing fluid left on the airframe freezes at high altitude and we can only guess what that might do to supercritical wing performance. I have seen blueish types applied in Europe oozing from RJ wing orifices down the side of the fuselage two hours later on the apron in the UK. Where does it go next? Does it matter? Probably not now, but what was this stuff and when and where did all the rest go before it dissipated?
To my knowledge, no book documents the cause or the course of it once it's out of the nozzle, and I am not entirely sure that the book that documents it after it leaves the tanker is always kept to a fine standard.
PS I very much agree with LTD's style of bringing the original matter to the attention of his neighbours on the ramp and the community at large. To those that say you don't need to name and shame I say "You do".
What it shows is that as a group, professional pilots are severely devoid of full scientific understanding of things that contaminate and degrade the thing that they need most - the wing.
It is also clear that even when the group does exhibit some understanding of the problem, that there is very little understanding of how to control rectification of it because of casual delegation of responsibility to people who squirt goodness knows what with varying degrees of diligence comprehension or communicative ability, coupled with a reluctance to don bad weather gear and actually get out, sometimes more than once, to get up a ladder or up in a hydraulic basket to make a direct observation-based decision.
Seems to me there's a lot of guessing that it'll be alright on the night based on the fact that it was ok last time.
I'm with despegue on the need for annual re-training (and I'd add note-swapping) on this - with ATC, airport ground ops management (the fluid purchasers/sellers) and the deicing team in the same classroom as the pilots. From what I have seen, there is far too much "going through the motions" and far too little understanding.
Going through the motions is better than not (so long as the fluid is to spec and applied properly), but I can tell you, because I have watched it do so, that some deicing fluid left on the airframe freezes at high altitude and we can only guess what that might do to supercritical wing performance. I have seen blueish types applied in Europe oozing from RJ wing orifices down the side of the fuselage two hours later on the apron in the UK. Where does it go next? Does it matter? Probably not now, but what was this stuff and when and where did all the rest go before it dissipated?
To my knowledge, no book documents the cause or the course of it once it's out of the nozzle, and I am not entirely sure that the book that documents it after it leaves the tanker is always kept to a fine standard.
PS I very much agree with LTD's style of bringing the original matter to the attention of his neighbours on the ramp and the community at large. To those that say you don't need to name and shame I say "You do".
Last edited by slip and turn; 7th Dec 2007 at 12:33.
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Everyone, please remember the most important part. We are talking about a highly experience crew who earns a very nice salary. I don’t question for one minute their decision to depart.
The aforequoted post demonstrates a complete lack of awareness of such, and while I doubt that Iberia have a culture that disregards CRM, it is apparant that for a crew to disregard the opinion of another professional who had a better view of their wings than them, is tanatmount to inviting disaster.
It remains a pity that CRM lessons appear only to be learned through disaster rather than potential "near disasters" that could have occurred...
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pilotosdeiberia.com
nice try...if only the ppl posting there had anything to do with the real thing...and btw possibly the "silence" in this forums is because of the small spanish population of this site.
DISCLAIMER: I'm in neither side of the debate at this point, as I do not have the knowledge to get in it, just wanted to get some of the posts in touch with reality...
Also a note of advice to the topic starter, be careful with how you raise flags, it may come back right at you if you name too much -being in the states you'll be more aware of what and why you may be sued for-. Not a threat at all; myself have been once told off for posting names in the net.
A.
DISCLAIMER: I'm in neither side of the debate at this point, as I do not have the knowledge to get in it, just wanted to get some of the posts in touch with reality...
Also a note of advice to the topic starter, be careful with how you raise flags, it may come back right at you if you name too much -being in the states you'll be more aware of what and why you may be sued for-. Not a threat at all; myself have been once told off for posting names in the net.
A.
Last edited by andrijander; 7th Dec 2007 at 14:38. Reason: to add a disclaimer before I'm labelled anything (or judged and sentenced).
To those that say you don't need to name and shame I say "You do".
Curiously enough, albeit in a different context, "You do" is the precise expression which LTD used to start the whole (snow) ball rolling ....
Jack
PS I'm with LTD
Curiously enough, albeit in a different context, "You do" is the precise expression which LTD used to start the whole (snow) ball rolling ....
Jack
PS I'm with LTD
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andrijander
An interesting post. Talk about CTA!!
I would say let the carrier concerned take legal proceedings, if what LTD wrote is wrong (which I very much doubt).
The silence from the Iberian peninsula is deafening!!
An interesting post. Talk about CTA!!
I would say let the carrier concerned take legal proceedings, if what LTD wrote is wrong (which I very much doubt).
The silence from the Iberian peninsula is deafening!!
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No doubt in the ensuing "accident" report the blame would be put on other parties, by the registry authority.
PM
COMPLACENCY KILLS
We've all done it at one time or another...freezing cold, biting wind, pi$$ing with rain, torch/flashlight going dim....any one of these and we do the walk round with just a little less attention than normal. Why? We're all human and we've done this so many times we know what we're doing!
Wrong!
That's complacency and that's eventually going to hurt you. It didn't hurt these guys BUT.... they were lucky.
Those posters who think the crew did OK better examine their modus operandi. Sure as s$$t they will bend something if they don't change.
We've all done it at one time or another...freezing cold, biting wind, pi$$ing with rain, torch/flashlight going dim....any one of these and we do the walk round with just a little less attention than normal. Why? We're all human and we've done this so many times we know what we're doing!
Wrong!
That's complacency and that's eventually going to hurt you. It didn't hurt these guys BUT.... they were lucky.
Those posters who think the crew did OK better examine their modus operandi. Sure as s$$t they will bend something if they don't change.
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Originally Posted by grunf
It looked as an eye opener, for them. I guess maybe MFS will have more stories of that kind, if he follows this thread.
Please never fly with (suspected) icing on wings of CL models. NEVER!!
Please never fly with (suspected) icing on wings of CL models. NEVER!!
De-icing when not needed is as bad as no de-icing when needed.
I would happily fly on a CRJ (or any other aircraft) that had applied "unnecessary" anti-ice fluid, even if I were a bit perplexed as to why they'd done so. I'd be walking towards the exit if I suspected the aircraft were about to try to takeoff with ice or snow on the wing. And no, I wouldn't care if the pilot thought it was "safe".
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Something that was pointed out to me was the nature of the posts from people from 'Latin' backgrounds. Now, I'm no CRM expert but the person who highlighted the interesting fact to me, is, and I value his perspective. The defensive nature of some of the responses, together with their apparent macho pride being hurt, shows us that there are still some cultures, even here in the west, that have not yet solved the problems associated with constructive criticism. Considering that they involve safety critical issues is even more alarming.
Aside from the point about whether it is right or wrong to have highlighted the particular flight in question, a valuable discussion has taken place which raises the awareness for those of us who do fly these aircraft at the beginning of another northern hemisphere winter. It is indeed eye opening to read some of the comments from alleged professional pilots who appear to be unaware of the problems associated with flying surfaces which are contaminated with frost, snow or ice. I can only presume that they are either pretending to be professionals or else we do still have a very serious problem in the industry. One in particular was someone from an Eastern European airline who pointed out that they are allowed to depart with up to 3mm of ice on the wing. It seems as though the manual was translated and the context was lost during translation!
I altered the title of this thread because too may people took the rather original, rather simplistic title literally and assumed a broad brush was being applied to Iberia pilots in general. I'm sure that is not the case with a world class national flag carrier. However, that does not mean that there are individuals who are possibly going to take unnecessary risks. That could apply to any airline in the world.
The revised title still conveys the original posters alarm and concerns but isolates the pilots to a specific flight. Whether they have seen or heard about this thread or their management have questioned them about it doesn't matter. The rest of us will hopefully be just that bit more aware of another of the multitude of safety critical areas we have responsibility for.
Here we can discuss the perceptions that have been aroused by the original post and the subsequent tapes that were linked to. We all draw our own conclusions and a few even go so far as to post them for others to see. This is the information age and fighting against the current and arguing about whether any of this should be published is not going to stop it. At least here, it can be discussed amongst our peers. We try to prevent the glory seekers with no relevant background or experience from taking the limelight with posts that make us cringe by pointing out the error of their way of thinking and hopefully educating them a bit better.
Aside from the point about whether it is right or wrong to have highlighted the particular flight in question, a valuable discussion has taken place which raises the awareness for those of us who do fly these aircraft at the beginning of another northern hemisphere winter. It is indeed eye opening to read some of the comments from alleged professional pilots who appear to be unaware of the problems associated with flying surfaces which are contaminated with frost, snow or ice. I can only presume that they are either pretending to be professionals or else we do still have a very serious problem in the industry. One in particular was someone from an Eastern European airline who pointed out that they are allowed to depart with up to 3mm of ice on the wing. It seems as though the manual was translated and the context was lost during translation!
I altered the title of this thread because too may people took the rather original, rather simplistic title literally and assumed a broad brush was being applied to Iberia pilots in general. I'm sure that is not the case with a world class national flag carrier. However, that does not mean that there are individuals who are possibly going to take unnecessary risks. That could apply to any airline in the world.
The revised title still conveys the original posters alarm and concerns but isolates the pilots to a specific flight. Whether they have seen or heard about this thread or their management have questioned them about it doesn't matter. The rest of us will hopefully be just that bit more aware of another of the multitude of safety critical areas we have responsibility for.
Here we can discuss the perceptions that have been aroused by the original post and the subsequent tapes that were linked to. We all draw our own conclusions and a few even go so far as to post them for others to see. This is the information age and fighting against the current and arguing about whether any of this should be published is not going to stop it. At least here, it can be discussed amongst our peers. We try to prevent the glory seekers with no relevant background or experience from taking the limelight with posts that make us cringe by pointing out the error of their way of thinking and hopefully educating them a bit better.
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Sleggy,
You were an NPPL student in February 2007 yet now you are flying A330?...
Let me give you some sound advice. Never rush to blame people, especially not as an officer. Part of your duty as a responsable person for safety and a head of a work-team is to first try and know all the facts before judgement. That is called leadership.
ATC merely asked 2 times wether the involved flight needed de-icing, only the captain of the neigbour aircraft (LTD) warned the crew that he percieved it necessary for them to de-ice (again?). Well done to him as most here agree.
By the way, any pilot refusing to aknowledge the danger of icing should not fly. Period. Wether it is passengers, cargo or sightseeing the Grand-Canyon in his own little C152.
You were an NPPL student in February 2007 yet now you are flying A330?...
Let me give you some sound advice. Never rush to blame people, especially not as an officer. Part of your duty as a responsable person for safety and a head of a work-team is to first try and know all the facts before judgement. That is called leadership.
ATC merely asked 2 times wether the involved flight needed de-icing, only the captain of the neigbour aircraft (LTD) warned the crew that he percieved it necessary for them to de-ice (again?). Well done to him as most here agree.
By the way, any pilot refusing to aknowledge the danger of icing should not fly. Period. Wether it is passengers, cargo or sightseeing the Grand-Canyon in his own little C152.
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De-icing when not needed is as bad as no de-icing when needed
Nonsense, pure and simple. To continue the CRJ example, the effect of de-icing or anti-icing fluid on the scheduled speeds is precisely zero. On the dash 8s I believe it's a five knot adder. The aircraft is certified/approved for the use of the fluids - which means we know what it does and we've given procedures that work with it present. We also know what ice and snow CAn do - see the 30 knot adder mentioned above.
