Firstly, no-one likes to see fellow pilots screwed, it that's what you think you are in the wrong forum, even given the current pressures.

The phrase "denial of their fate" did not refer just to NAS Crews..

Sorry, this is nonsense, if the crew transfer were illegal, they were illegal even if the company had not abandoned anyone, bit like saying i'm not a convict until I get caught.. complete rubbish. The problem with this "action" by SELPA it has only been taken now the crews are abandoned, it could have been taken before and negotiated, but in reality, no-one wants to bite the hand that feeds them.

NAS played a very shady game by galvanising the pilots with the Red Nose Warriors, making them feel part of the mother ship then in a callous and premeditated manner cut them free keeping only the home bases. The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.

No, it hasn't got a pot to pi** in, the assets have all been taken over by the shareholders.

they simply don't have the funds to pay millions in settlements.

In the UK we support the Spanish crews, some are even ex colleagues, but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme and that is fading out, leaving hundreds of staff without jobs and just state aid. The SELPA action relies on the premise that the crews were in fact NAS employees and as NAS is still "active" although in a coma, that that they are entitled to the legal severances under Spanish Law. The NAS lawyers have basically said go row your own boat, now it's up to the courts to decide.

Lets suppose the court rules in favour of SELPA, the initial transfer of crews was illegal etc etc, and the crews were de facto employees of NAS.. then what? blood from a stone?
The fear of upsetting NAS should be banished from the minds of SELPA, stop using phrases like "our beloved company" , is this the same company that squatted on them from a great height? ,encourage other unions to support the cause and make the NAS operation in Spain impossible unless they do the honourable thing and recognise that as a majority shareholder in NAR ES that they were the "controlling mind" and had the associated financial responsibility.

Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.

Lastly, apologies to any Spanish crews that though I was getting pleasure from their predicament, this is not the case, I get 2 or 3 emails a day asking about 777 and 787 LPCs and recurrent and my feelings go out to the guys depending on these jobs to pay the bills.

Perhaps as a "goodwill" gesture NAS could keep everyone validated FOC?

Kirks,

It´s SEPLA, not SELPA.

WRONG. You can have subsidiares take care of certain things like payroll, local arrangements, etc..., but as long as you don´t have production (like it´s the case with NAR ES), then the mother company is liable for their employees, and that includes compensation for redundancies. As a matter of fact, the creation of NAR ES back in 2017 was precisely to comply with a previous sentence in Spain where OSM and other arrangements for cabin crew (Adecco) were found to be illegal by a labour court.

We don´t think of compensation now as a result of this situation. A permanent employee in Spain is ALWAYS entitled to compensation when made redundant.

That statement is so absurd that I won´t even bother...

If you don´t have the money for the settlements then you can either file for bankruptcy of the whole group (like many airlines unfortunately have done) or keep everyone furloughed until production resumes. Furthermore, you can meet with union representatives and try to negotiate somewhere in the middle to survive the storm, ie. we can´t pay you know, but you can stay in the government subsidised scheme while we arrange our finances and get back to business later on. Meanwhile, you´re still part of the team, let us do free extensions on your licenses, keep your ID, uniform and corporate email and let´s see where everything goes. That´s what a socially responsible enterprise does with their staff.

What you cannot do in any case is disappear like nothing happened, disconnect your staff from intranet as if they´re no longer your problem, let all their ratings expire and on top of that ask them to reapply for their jobs wishing them good luck for the future.

In case you´re not up to speed with what´s going on, please read below how BALPA is coming along the ride to protect their jobs along with SEPLA and how, apart from some brownNoseWarriors, staff in the UK is equally worried about norwegian´s social practices:


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0faa265a1.jpeg

If NAS gets taken over, it gets taken over with its assets, debts and staff obligations like any other company. Indeed, you can actually say that it has been taken over already by lessors and bondholders.

If NAS folds completely it definitely won´t be because of their crews not doing their job, and I seriously doubt they will collapse at this point. Crews from Spain or anywhere in the network are not looking for the company to go bust. We´re just looking for the company to be responsible and to follow the law.

I don´t think it´s so hard to understand and, as you say, the courts will decide.

It looks like Spain is planning on opening up again to international tourism from July. There is a heavy Scandinavian presence in Spain and the NAS flights from the Nordic countries were always pretty full. I hope Norwegian’s new owners recognise that unless they get their act together soon and wake up from their hibernation, this business will be snatched from under their ‘Red Noses’ or by the time they wake up next spring, all the rich pickings will be gone.

Yeah, maybe not.
I don't think a whole lot of tourists are willing to hop on a plane to Spain as long as they have 2 weeks of quarantine to look forward to upon return to Scandiland.
Do you?

I imagine that for some people, the life they've adopted during lockdown is pretty indistinguishable from quarantine, so maybe a fair number. No exercise, groceries delivered, WFH.

From skift article

https://skift.com/2020/05/20/covids-...JbZToktaHWCi5c

“Norwegian is Exhibit A for this sort of reset. Pre-crisis, it was already undertaking major reforms, enabling it to escape 2019 alive. Barely. But even its boldest steps left big questions about whether it could ever achieve success. Then the crisis came, and Norwegian was suddenly in a position to access government loan support, subject to extreme reforms. The result: Pain for all stakeholders, but also a “New Norwegian” with a business model much more likely to succeed than anything achievable pre-crisis. It’s now a less complex airline, with vastly lower costs and greater operating flexibility. Before, Norwegian was a broken airline in a world of robust demand. Now demand is much lower, but the airline is much leaner”

what are you talking about? There will not be any quarantine upon return.

Oh the Scandi's will flock alright. And so will the Brits, even if they (because the Scandi's are not) are required to quarantine afterwards. The Dutch will, as will the Belgians, and as soon as the Germans can reapply their summerly claim on Mallorca being the 17th Bundesland, they will bloody well take advantage of it.

Not in the numbers of last year, obviously, but certainly enough to motivate airlines who are quick of foot to get their wares in the airs. But, and you may safely store this for later ridicule shall I be proven wrong, I predict the mother of all rebounds to take place in the North-to-Beach flying business in July, August and September.

Keeping your staff on a friendly, if temporarily financial distant, footing would seem like a prudent and business conducive measure.

Don't know about "Scandis", which by the way is as meaningless as "Europeans", but return to Norway and yes, 10 days quarantine.

Something odd going on here.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-defying-rally

Norwegian press have had interviews with some of the small time buyers and they are dreaming of the share price again rising to the 300 Nkr it was not long ago, if they just hold out for a few years. Not at all thinking about that that would price Norwegian at 9 times the value of Ryanair.

The shares currently put out for sale in the market are swept up immediately, almost next to impossible to purchase larger portion of shares at the moment.

A huge number of Norwegians are extremely supportive of "Norwegian" and extremely worried about a new SAS monopoly.
Might be a reason why small time investors buys shares.
Per

That’s actually quite reassuring to hear.

No one likes a monopoly! Of course the larger shareholders had no say in the matter..

Many reported share dealings today were sales via investment companies outside of the stock exchange, the analysts are suggesting shareholders hang on but of course some larger shareholders may just want some cash at any price. Selling largish blocks will drive the price down, on the other hand, the available shares may be distributed among more potential holders and prices may rise. Closed down about 9% today.

Problem with OFF BOOK trading is no one knows who owns what !

Why isn't NAS taking advantage of the freight price and fly the 787 with belly freight with no pax like EVERY airline is doing!?!?

Then they would have to reemploy people and reengage the millions of agencies they partner with. Such a fragmented and complex approach to employment only works when you have economies of scale.

This sums it up:"Meanwhile, Norwegian Air Shuttle (OL:NWC), which has only just fended off bankruptcy with a state-backed loan after a series of recapitalizations and debt restructurings, fell 7.4% after its first-quarter results were every bit as bad as feared, including a pretax loss of 3.3 billion kroner ($334 million) and the complete absence of guidance.

Both are still up smartly on the week – SAS stock has gained 14% and Norwegian Air Shuttle stock 45% - but the sharp moves downward underline how the stocks have essentially become a plaything for thrill-seekers rather than a secure long-term investment."

What the airline needs is the "asian type" long term investment and not the short term speculative approach the "new shareholders" are taking.

New management and focus may see it survive, but head in the sand, and clouds approach coupled with press-ganged investors will surely make it fail. Perhaps the China influence will be a good thing..

Has been looked at , hasn’t found a way to make it profitable

Quite a few weeklies are onto the same thing saying there is a disconnect between the pricing of shares and whats going on. Good example i saw is 40 million in the US are unemployed plus another 2 million on some kind of support (¼ of the workforce) after the lockdown but the Nasdaq is up 5% for the year.

https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/artic...gian-air-board

Former Tui and EasyJet Director? I’m hoping this might be an indication of something positive.

I think you’re alluding to the redundancies of Red (ground) handling staff at LGW. With LGW ops currently not forecast to restart until April 2021 for Norwegian, it was obviously felt unsustainable to retain staff until then.

sad times.

So they're paying one month's notice - were the pilots contracted to one month's notice or three (when they resign)? - if it's three, I believe you can sue them for three months pay, as I was told an unequal notice contract is illegal.

This is relating to the 87 Long Haul Pilots being made redundant from Rishworth/Global Crew UK. BALPA is pushing the agency to do the right thing, having ‘appeared’ to have taken advantage of the temporary change in terms & conditions in order to qualify for the U.K. government JRS.

As far as the UK employment laws go: The "agency" cannot claim back the redundancy payments vis the UK JRS, therefore they will try and keep it to the minimum they think they can get away with. Sadly, the furlough payments will end for the crews.

They got that angled nice and covered too. Even if the NP was 3 months either way, they would just go ahead and shut shop, claiming insolvency as Norwegian was their sole client, without which they have no income.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....58d8c3bb64.png

no they are not. Don’t spin out utter BS, times are hard enough.

“There is no doubt that leisure traffic will rebound before business travel and we will be perfectly placed to strategically and geographically take advantage of this,” Chief Executive Jacob Schram said in a statement.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-he...-idUKKBN23G1S7

Optimistic and bullish quote from Jacob Schram when Norwegian have effectively dispensed with all their crew. I wondered if they were keeping half an eye on what the other airlines would do, which is understandable, but if they've got no one to actually fly the aircraft, NAI are surely already dead in the water?

Nobody to fly the aircraft? Have you been living under a rock for the past four months?

Even if they had "dispensed with all their crew", which they haven't, it's not going to be hard to find pilots to fly the aircraft.

Pretty much, just the Norwegian based people left.

Having a close relative flying for them, I can assure you the crew “have been dispensed with” They’ve been asked to return uniforms and passes, so that’s a pretty final statement.

If NAI hope to start flying again soon, it’ll be a pretty major undertaking to recruit, train and update licenses for new flight crew, let alone the time implications. Particularly illogical when they have let go an existing team who could have been available at a short notice.

I can assure you that no one in the U.K. has returned any uniform or I.D.’s - it was mentioned in a Workplace post on May 5th, but never followed through. Ex colleagues (for now) in ARN & CPH bases have handed back said items which have been tagged and put into storage for ‘Ron. Due to the A-typical employment method, Norwegian crew are all in limbo, receiving JRS, but not knowing if we’ll return to flying or be made redundant? BALPA and OSM UK are working together for the best Possible outcome, with limited information coming from Norwegian.

Sadly, this relative is at a Spanish base so SEPLA are fighting for a fair outcome from NAI.

Fair play. Norwegian are going to learn the hard way, that they can’t treat people this way. It is clear as day, that Norwegian is the employer in all regions; Spain, U.K. Finland etc.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-he...-idUKKBN23L09V

And abandoning quarantine too.

Norwegian might be needing those crew members after all, if it’s not going to be left standing.

I am very well aware that GCUK have made redundancies. You’ve been totally shafted by them and their approach to redundancy package (or lack of) you have nothing but my sympathy.

You clearly implied all UK pilots have been made redundant which as you well know is BS. All of the Norwegian/OSM UK Crew are still employed.

Let’s not get into username slagging. PPRUNE is largely full of detritus threads as it is.

I think that is a common misconception by those not familiar with this industry. An airline is not Mcdonalds. Even if the labour market is awash with pilots you still need to recruit them, select them and train them. That takes plenty of time and money. All crew have to undergo an OCC course which takes a minimum of 5 sims and 2 weeks of different courses, after that you need to put them through line training. For all of that you will need an army of Examiners, Sim instructors, Line trainers and ground trainers. Even with a fully oiled training system running at full capacity hiring the thousands of pilots needed to run a 120 aircraft fleet will take over a year and cost many tens of millions. If your training department has been dismantled or much diminished you will need to first hire and train the trainers which will take considerably longer and cost even more.

Recruitment of pilots cannot be rushed for many logistical and regulatory reasons but putting that to the side taking the "wrong" sort will cost the company even more in the medium to long run with potentially decades of additional training, additional operational costs, damaged equipment, avoidable delays, avoidable cancelations , poor customer service, etc etc. Not to mention that if you mess up your hiring at macdonalds you end up with a burnt burger in an airline you can end up with a big hole in the ground. Given the numbers involved recruiting some bad apples is probably unavoidable so the question is how many and how bad, how much do I rush the recruitment so the risk is still manageable. Bad as that is recruiting a bad trainer can give you dozens of bad apples. How many trainers are you willing to just push through untested?

So finding pilots won't be "hard" but finding the right pilots and getting to the point where they are available to fly the line will be a lengthy and costly process that will require a very significant logistical and operational effort.

Well you just wasted precious minutes of your life that you won’t get back, I’m well aware of the logistics of pilot recruitment, thanks.

The point is 1. Norwegian still have the majority of pilots employed and 2. There is going to be a huge global supply of qualified pilots without notice periods that could start the following day if required (but most likely won’t be because of point 1).

Don't worry about it. I have plenty of time... Judging by your point 2 you still dot get it though