Do they still have airbuses on order?

Coming days and weeks are really interesting. I guess this can become a self-fulfilling prophecy; now that even laymen know that Norwegian has serious problems at hand they are going to book their flights from another provider probably.

Btw didn't we have one mate here who bashed Norwegian for the last five years at least and appeared in every thread regarding Norwegian? I wonder if he's finally at peace.

I feel sorry for the people who work there, I hope all the best.

Let’s just face it that low cost long haul doesn’t work.
People Express, Laker’s Skytrain, Zoom, others which I’ve forgotten and now Norwegian.

Meester proach, we may not always agree on Pprune but still a heartfelt Good Luck. Having been through a similar situation in 2017 I know how stressful it is. Even worse so in the current economic climate.

It's not just low-cost long haul that doesn't work, but single-market long haul. The high end transatlantic operators of a few years ago went the same way.

The fact is that a typical legacy long haul flight has a mix of low end, median (eg business travellers in Economy) and premium passengers, plus substantial belly cargo, with O&D, plus connecting pax at both ends, plus significant marketing, plus major corporate deals for substantial users, plus very substantial and honed frequent flyer programmes, plus expert yield managers getting as much as they can out of each.

From all of this, they just manage to do a bit better than break even. Meanwhile the new contenders are missing one or more of these elements (some quite a lot), and then on what elements they do have, offer fares which are lower than those of the operator above, and thus give less revenue. What's not to understand ?

Spoken like a through stuck in the mud. All the above cost money to organise and adds substantially to the revenue needed. Including faff like frequent flyer programs, honing, corporate deals, connections, over-marketing and EXPERT yield managers.
There just haven't been a well funded transatlantic low fares carrier with true low cost principles yet. Norwegian is a half way house that try to be low fares but with a high norwegian cost base, and don't want to sucumb totally to the reputation one gets if one count every coin. Its no transatlantic Ryanair, but it could be. Kjos was after all a pilot and a lawyer and not a penny pinching accountant. And the new chief never hit the ground running but was still learning the airline ropes when the market went off the cliff, after a lifetime spent within retail in an overfunded company,

yes there are depts but... this airline managed to reduce their costs significantly in a very short time while other flag carrier tankers are still in their process of reducing their overwhelming overhead costs of pension obligations etc.
Will people travel first or business in the future in order to cover these high costs that flag carriers have when flying from their overpriced major airports? I don`t think so. I think „after-covid-times“ is the times where this business model works better than ever. as business ppl. learn to to their stuff via skype and zoom more and more. But Norwegian customers are in majority millennials and tourists. They will come back quickly and want to fly these modern, fuel efficient planes for a good price!

I hope they pull through. I have flown Norwegian many times and hope to do so again.

Not penny pinching Kjos?
Are you sure about that?
Why Irish and British AOC?
Why Thai based crew, on Singapore contracts, all the time with EASA pilots?
Why forcing large part of the workforce to OSM, a company only supplying workforce to Norwegian, and no Scandinavian worker rights protections etc.

I ask myself, why should the Norwegian government provide funds for a company who have minority of their aircraft registered on their Norwegian AOC?

You having a joke when you saying not penny pinching Kjos.

Thank you for posting this. My son is a pilot for NAS and his job, along with many others, now hangs in the balance. He’s always spoken highly of the care and support he’s always received from his management and what a great team it is. It’ll be a sad day for many reasons if Norwegian hit the buffers.

I feel for the staff, that is without question but even before Covid19 they were on the ropes and should have stuck to shorthaul. It was a very good product.
Their longhaul product, when it worked it worked well. Unfortunately when things went wrong their customer service was shocking.
There has been longhaul flying since the flying boat era. Low cost longhaul doesn’t work. Why should Norwegian think it does?

I think you are just making that up to fit the narrative. If you think people are going to give up flying first and business with a major and settle for Norwegian you are living in a dreamworld. Expect economy airfares to soar, those who use business and first will keep flying business and first.

That may seem like penny pinching for a Norwegian but when flying people from UK or Spain to the US, and other even further away destinations, a small break with the socialist Scandinavian model is not enough. It's just the first couple of sentence out of MOL's and EW's book.
And if all Norwegian's aircraft was on a Norwegian AOC they couldn't be in that market at all. Think about how NIS had to come in to save Norwegian registered ship owning/management.

Then they should not have been called norwegian, pretended like they are from Norway and apply for a norwegian bailout.

That'a the price we pay so the great unwashed can travel to Spain for £30 and Vegas for £120. It is a daft unsustainable business model which will die within the next few years. Then we will be back to the good old days of the rich flying and the rest of us on the coach.

Exactly my point.

The founder is norwegian, the headquarters is in Norway, a significant part of the AOCS are there . Ever heard of global companies ? Do you think Ryanair isn’t Irish becuase not everyone that works there drinks Guinness ?

Indeed, I don't call Ryanair Irish. And seeing how they tried and failed to use Irish law to fire foreign employees, most countries don't see then as Irish too.

I don't have an issue with global companies, but if you (mis)use the global possibilities to evade the responsibilities (tax, social payments) in your so called home country, you should not apply for a bailout in that same country.

Sorry to burst your bubble but besides the NUK and NSE aircraft all the 787s have norwegian registration. Also the BKK based pilots were on BKK contract, same as the cabin Crew. That also goes for All the other bases.
A british aoc was set up for flying out of the UK, that shouldn't be too hard to understand. It was as far as I remember also a requirement to fly longhaul over the pond. The irish AOC was Set up for similar reasons. What's so hard to understand about that? And more importantly, what's so bad about that?

Norwegian have at last 14 Dreamliners registered in the UK. 30- 737 in on Irish registration.

And if you can't see the issue with Irish AOC, or UK AOC, OSM haven't got any money to pay the salaries to any of them, the crews will be getting money from the British government most likely, but if OSM is not British, it starts to get very messy indeed. So Norwegian want help from various countries governments and their own government, so they can survive.

However if you are not paying your taxes to Norway for large part of the operations, why should you expect the Norwegian government to bail out the company who are trying their best to avoid "expensive" Norway.
Why should tax payers fit the bill for a failing company? Why should Norway bail them out?

Why ? As was mentioned with virgin, think of what a company pays into its relevant government in tax, income tax from employees etc. There’s always a price to the country of having workers doing nothing.

NUK, is a uk registered company with a UK AOC.

Norwegian are not Norwegian. That name of the airline is deliberately misleading. Perhaps Norwegian will go bust, annul all debts, and rename themselves Welsh. Or Zimbabwean? In any event, the existing company is soon due to go down. I feel very sorry for the employees, but not for the top management who will escape with ill-gotten money. Those times will soon pass, but not soon enough for this airline, with their ridiculous business model. Low cost long-haul. Super cheap short-haul. No way.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...o-accept-offer

Like the article says they have no choice.

They are not investing it’s accept the process or potentially lose everything, if it’s accepted and Norwegian survive they will dump their shares as soon as they can.

Norwegian UK compete directly with British companies, could prove interesting if they ask for and receive a Norwegian government bailout as would that be against completion rules? Such is the convoluted airline business these days.

What planet do you live on? They were started in Norway, by Norwegians. They are headquartered in Norway. They are listed on the Oslo stock exchange. Seven of the eight members of the board of directors are Norwegian. Their original and largest AOC is Norwegian. Their largest shareholders are Norwegian. The CEO is Norwegian. In what way are they not Norwegian?

So IKEA is not Swedish because they have entities everywhere and sub companies??? Same goes for Mc Donalds... not ab American company because entities everywhere??? Despite from that who cares???

But what about easyjet and the brexit? Why are they given/ or will they be given approval to fly outside of (not in and out) the UK? They are a UK company.

How many of their employees pay income tax in Norway?

How do you turn debt into shares with no investing at all? Especially now that the company is worth nothing and debt is huge...

I do not get it, maybe someone can explain?

Vikdream. The company is bankrupt and there is no way of repaying the debt holders. The only hope is that new shares are created and swapped for the debt, in the hope that the company survives and the shares gain in value. The debt is eliminated. Shares are sold at some future date salvaging some of the lenders money. As part of the process, the existing shareholders are almost wiped out as to create new shares the original number will be diluted by a large factor. Seen it happen several times, Lost my money but kept my job, until the last crash when everything went! If you can’t afford to loose it don’t invest!

The Norwegian pilots outside Norway, don't work for Norwegian, they work for third party companies.
If you work for Ikea or McDonalds, you work for that branch of a company, you are not working for a third party company. How hard is this to understand?

Ehm nope, but keep trying.

I wonder how many can do this, and so they can borrow more money.

Truckflyer. It worked for Harriet Green and TCX, but as usual, the management that ejected her went on another borrowing spree until collapse. The next attempt to borrow more failed in spectacular fashion.

Dude.... i am working for Norwegian straight away in France with a permanent contract. And guess what... i am happy there and i want us to survive.

Whilst we all wish NAS to come through this, the reality is that even if they can plug the gaps now it may be that they fail spectacularly down the line as PAX revenues plummet leaving thousands stranded and huge costs to governments in repatriation . Unless all the pundits are wrong, the view Easyjet and BA have that it could be 9 months before operations return would also apply to NAS. The Irish Times seems to be following the lease situation: https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/to...=Norwegian+Air. In real terms NAS are asking investors to write off their debts on the hope of better returns down wind. The lease companies will still have to pay their financiers and for them this would be a bad deal, on the other hand who wants aircraft back in the middle of a global crisis. NAS is a large player at Gatwick but again the CAA may want to review the financial viability in terms of the AOC requirement and ATOL membership. Looking increasingly like a larger problem for NAS whom really need cash to survive 12 months in the current climate and the Norwegian funding plan is really a finger plaster not a viable solution.

Is your contract with Norwegian AS? Or with OSM? Or with someone else?

The French furlough agreements are most likely a lot better than most other countries in Europe, but after this there is going to be a price to pay, for many countries. I doubt NAS is paying you at this time while you not working, I am guessing they have left it for the French government to sort out, or am I wrong?

The employer is norwegian air france, a local employer. Or how would you imagine a local french contract being Set up? Makes things easier for the employees and the parent Company ;) but I am sure you will find an issue in there too. And yes of course the local government helps, just like in Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways as well. That's what the employees pay Social insurance for. Or do you actually believe that those legacy Airlines are paying the salaries by themselves?

In france, this temporary furlough protection is not on the social security budget, but general state budget. Therefore, an airline which has been successfully at not paying taxes in this country is getting state help without contributing. This applies for other airlines, too.

Good for the crews, though.

How do you even know they weren't paying taxes there? The Crews are paying taxes there as well as Social contributions. Why they shouldnt get anything in return now??

Come on guys. Use your brain. Norwegian is a Norwegian company listed in the Oslo Stock Exchange with the headquarters in Oslo. The corporate profits are taxed in Norway. The company, like many large companies, has a number of subsidiaries. The employees in those subsidiaries are employed on local contracts and pay their taxes and social security in the local country. Exactly the same as employees in easyJet, IAG, Citibank, Ford, Airbus, etc etc. Local AOCs are not a cost saving issue but a mechanism to gain the right to fly to third countries - ever heard of the Chicago Convention? An airline cannot just choose to fly from a third country to another third country outside the EU just like that. You cannot use the Siberian corridor just like that. Rusia might allow a "Swedish" carrier but not an "Irish" carrier for example.

A crew member is based in London Gatwick and operates from London, where would you expect them to be contracted, in Oslo? where would they pay income tax and social security, In Oslo? of course not. They pay their taxes and SS in the UK as it should be. Their employment is subject to UK law. Much as an easyJet pilot based in Paris pays their tax and is em ployed in France or a Citibank cashier working in Munich in employed in Germany. That is the proper way to do it. Not to be confused with companies that provide an employment contract based in a country nowhere near where the crew member is based with the sole purpose of avoiding labour legislation and tax avoidance - I won't name any names here but how about W and R

Does that mean the company is not Norwegian? of course not. The company headquarters are in Norway and the companies profits are taxed in Norway. Exactly the same setup as every other large corporation out there.

So who should rescue what part? When Ford and GM got into trouble in the last crisis who bailed them out? the US treasury - but they have employees, factories, dealers, etc all over the world? yes but is a US company and the US bailed them out because it considered the economic fallout of letting them go to the wall was higher than the cost of bailing them out. When we had the flood in the UK a few months ago who got government help? just those employed by wholly owned and headquartered UK companies? no - everyone that lived in the affected area. When Honda decides to close a factory in the UK who comes and stumps a pile of cash to try to keep it open? the UK treasury, why? because they want to protect local jobs. So in this case Norway may bail the "company" out but individual countries are bailing the local employees out.

Indeed, the UK Government is supporting the Employees via the furlough schemes, but they will not inject cash to support the "business" they were happy to let Flybe .The Gatwick airport movement capacity has always been strained and should NAS go then other players will easily take up the slack, of course, Pilots and Cabin crew would be much more difficult to place. Most folks are keeping fingers crossed for NAS but radical changes and realistic reductions in numbers need to occur to place the company on track to at least break even. Unfortunately, once the market and suppliers loose confidenece in a company the rest is "history"