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NAS has a few crew bases, so redistributing available crew with the mini schedule they plan to fly shouldn't be rocket science. Remember when they expanded long haul in 2012 crews were shuffled all over the place too.
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Originally Posted by calypso
(Post 10811156)
I think that is a common misconception by those not familiar with this industry. An airline is not Mcdonalds. Even if the labour market is awash with pilots you still need to recruit them, select them and train them. That takes plenty of time and money. All crew have to undergo an OCC course which takes a minimum of 5 sims and 2 weeks of different courses, after that you need to put them through line training. For all of that you will need an army of Examiners, Sim instructors, Line trainers and ground trainers. Even with a fully oiled training system running at full capacity hiring the thousands of pilots needed to run a 120 aircraft fleet will take over a year and cost many tens of millions. If your training department has been dismantled or much diminished you will need to first hire and train the trainers which will take considerably longer and cost even more.
Recruitment of pilots cannot be rushed for many logistical and regulatory reasons but putting that to the side taking the "wrong" sort will cost the company even more in the medium to long run with potentially decades of additional training, additional operational costs, damaged equipment, avoidable delays, avoidable cancelations , poor customer service, etc etc. Not to mention that if you mess up your hiring at macdonalds you end up with a burnt burger in an airline you can end up with a big hole in the ground. Given the numbers involved recruiting some bad apples is probably unavoidable so the question is how many and how bad, how much do I rush the recruitment so the risk is still manageable. Bad as that is recruiting a bad trainer can give you dozens of bad apples. How many trainers are you willing to just push through untested? So finding pilots won't be "hard" but finding the right pilots and getting to the point where they are available to fly the line will be a lengthy and costly process that will require a very significant logistical and operational effort. |
To get an aspiring pilot through selection and training into flying the line takes plenty of time and money. That is a fact. Not sure where the wishful thinking comes in. You can't crew a 120 aircraft airline overnight just because there are plenty of pilots about. That IS (an accountants) wishful thinking
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Finding pilots won't be hard, getting them through training and on line will be next to impossible.
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You guys are dreaming. There are type rated, recent, valid medical, Customer service experienced, high quality Captains, pouring out of the middle East right now. Heading back to Europe and the UK.
They are EASA qualified. They need a PC and 6 line training sectors. It would be true to say that trainers will be valued. |
Yeah, for a mom-and-pop shop, but not for any sizeable airline wtih detailed SOP and diverse operation. Most airlines have their way of doing things - from the moment you arrive to the crew room, through flying the aircraft to the moment you leave the crew room after duty. To suggest you could learn this in 3 days (PC + 2 days of line training), is... optimistic.
Where I work, you'd be looking at a good 2 months, assuming everything goes according to plan and there is plenty of training capacity available. |
No, they need an OCC, an LPC/OPC, and a minimum of 6 line training sectors.
Also, Norwegian need 787 and 737 rated and current pilots, and they are not "pouring out of the Middle East". |
Regardless of how experienced you are, and even type rated, if you come from the B777 (which is mainly the case as B787´s are not being laid off as much in QR) you still need a differences course of 4 SIM´s before your LST, then a full OCC course as you come to a different operator, and then your 6 sectors plus the final LCK. In the same fashion, any B737 captain joining short haul will still have to do a full OCC and 10 sectors.
In both cases, between interviewing, selection, rostering of their training and final LCK, you're looking at about 3 months on average. That is, if you have the availability on SIM slots in competition with the rest of the world starting their own airlines as well. Lastly, why would norwegian take an outside pilot when they have their own laid off, and in many cases still paying expenses for them, is probably the next question... 🤷🏻♂️ |
Originally Posted by Jonty
(Post 10811305)
No, they need an OCC, an LPC/OPC, and a minimum of 6 line training sectors.
Also, Norwegian need 787 and 737 rated and current pilots, and they are not "pouring out of the Middle East". I hope that you're right. But in my view the market value of Airline Pilots in the UK has collapsed. And to a lesser extent in Europe. |
Where is the money coming from for this expansion? They got a loan from the Norwegian state, which has to be paid back, that will be enough for flying 7 planes until the end of the year give or take. Hardly any income, bills to be paid if they start flying again, fuel, wages, leasing costs it won't be cheap. Been hovering around bankruptcy for years so you can think that there isn't exactly money in their bank account to use.
A global economy that is tanking so who is going to invest money into them to start flying again. Doubt any of these leasing companies will, lets be honest they went in because they had no choice so it was in their benefit. Now they will be facing a recapitalised SAS with even the Norwegian state thinking about going back in, it's not going to be easy for them at all. All this talk about pilots still being employed in OSM is surely academic isn't it. This is coming from someone in Scandanavia who lost their job. |
Absolutely delusional posting in here about how easy it is to replace pilots both in time and money. In Jet2 we haven't laid anyone off or announced any planned redundancies, this may not last forever obviously but there is a very real awareness that we are not as easy to replace as BA and some of you like to think. Our training department in a good year pumps out about 300 pilots and the current plan is that we can get everyone who is needed to relaunch the operation up and running in about a month, starting today.
That is with everyone having flown the aircraft within the last 6 months, airside passes still valid, still employed etc As for restarting an entire airline 6 months from now, replacing people and integrating new joiners if necessary, training the trainers who may not have flown in 12 months, then the crews, integrating new SOPs for Corona times, line training them, getting pax to trust you enough to actually book with Norweigen to have flights to line train people on.... Good luck with all that. |
The 7 planes flying have long gone to 8. And Norwegian is planning an announcement for reopening routes within Europe this week.
Besides you already have this on their site, w/prices: https://www.norwegian.com/uk/destina...lldestinations The willingness of lenders and lessors to recapitalise the company are unclear. They certainly took extra shares in the last 400 mill Nkr rights issue. Anyway it was 10 times oversubscribed so there should be potential for another and larger. |
Just getting the paperwork through the CAA could prove a nightmare!
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Originally Posted by vikingivesterled
(Post 10811369)
The 7 planes flying have long gone to 8. And Norwegian is planning an announcement for reopening routes within Europe this week.
Besides you already have this on their site, w/prices: https://www.norwegian.com/uk/destina...lldestinations The willingness of lenders and lessors to recapitalise the company are unclear. They certainly took extra shares in the last 400 mill Nkr rights issue. Anyway it was 10 times oversubscribed so there should be potential for another and larger. |
Finding an alternative airline that would take that many planes could take a while in the current market, and in the meantime the lessors are coming in at board level and selection committee level in Norwegian.
Most airlines, and lessors, have to many planes already and most have more on order and some ready for delivery from both Airbus and Boeing. Better then leave the planes with a known airline with hope of recovery where government loans at least will pay for parking, maintenance and some of the rent. |
I think the fact that Chris Browne has been recommended for appointment to the board is relevant. She brings experience from the travel side of things - not asset stripping.
https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/374418/chris-browne-nominated-for-norwegian-air-board More on next week’s apparent announcement. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/capta...val-to-profit/ |
Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
(Post 10811337)
Absolutely delusional posting in here about how easy it is to replace pilots both in time and money. In Jet2 we haven't laid anyone off or announced any planned redundancies, this may not last forever obviously but there is a very real awareness that we are not as easy to replace as BA and some of you like to think. Our training department in a good year pumps out about 300 pilots and the current plan is that we can get everyone who is needed to relaunch the operation up and running in about a month, starting today.
That is with everyone having flown the aircraft within the last 6 months, airside passes still valid, still employed etc As for restarting an entire airline 6 months from now, replacing people and integrating new joiners if necessary, training the trainers who may not have flown in 12 months, then the crews, integrating new SOPs for Corona times, line training them, getting pax to trust you enough to actually book with Norweigen to have flights to line train people on.... Good luck with all that. |
I think one of the big differences is the type of market. European leisure will probably rebound quite quickly. And WW said so himself. The long haul business market will probably be one of the last.
I think Jet2 will probably rebound quite quickly, BA long haul, probably not. Of course if we get a vaccine quite soon it could all come back very quickly. |
You may or may not be right but you and Willie Walsh have opposing views. We're going to see who's delusional. I imagine that it'll be something in the middle, with significantly lower Pilot salaries going forward. The £20,000 quoted on the IAG thread is probably to low but current salaries are obviously too high. |
In this case I have an opinion and not an agenda. I think that over the last 15 years far to many Pilots have been trained. I believe that the collapse in value of this profession became inevitable and that Coronavirus has just been the Catylist.
No Agenda though. Just an opinion. |
Originally Posted by BehindBlueEyes
(Post 10811462)
I think the fact that Chris Browne has been recommended for appointment to the board is relevant. She brings experience from the travel side of things - not asset stripping.
For that the nomination of Anton Joiner of Aer Cap for the board and Aengus Kelly for the nomination committee are more interesting. Plus the reduction from 3 to 2 weeks of calling EGM's. Expect more sudden changes but I'm surprised other lessors don't also want representing on the board. That could signal a quick sell off. Share price certainly down today when over 250 million of the new shares became sellable. |
Norwegian has clearly stated that they are not planning to restart flying their longhaul ops this and next year. The leasing companies took a haircut and accepted equity in lieu of outstanding payments. The first batch of 788s they have are heavily reworked from the first troublesome batch, and the entire 787 fleet is badly hit by the engine fix. Hardly an asset that a leasing company can switch over to a green shoot (if any exist). They are cutting crews becuase they know things are going to be rough for quite a while. The state aid from Norway had quite a few caveats so the lay offs have to be someplace else. Just before covid hit they had already scrapped all longhual ops from the scandic countries. They simply don't have any money to keep a few hundred pilots current.
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SH ramp up is imminent. Announcement this week. LH ramp up expected Q4 this year, if things continue to improve.
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ooh, I do hope so !
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Ramping up short haul would fall in line with what others are currently doing, albeit at reduced rotations and about 30% capacity. The real issue NAS has is cash flow and if the US class action goes ahead once again they could be stuffed.
Norwegian Air Sued in U.S. Over Unpaid Refunds Bursor & Fisher, a New York-based law firm, is leading a class-action lawsuit against Norwegian Air Shuttle over its actions to refund customers whose flights have been canceled due to the , butCOVID-19 pandemic. It is estimated that Norway’s largest airline owes customers a total of between $200 million and $400 million, reported Norway-based media outlet Bergens Tidende. |
well seeing as the lessors basically own the airline , I’d be surprised if they didn’t want some productivity out of the longhaul aircraft fleet
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According to the annual report released on June 9, if the pandemic continues to force Norwegian into hibernation, the company estimates that it will need approximately $235 million financial aid during the second quarter of 2020f It seems that Europe’s fourth-largest low-cost carrier will completely discontinue the long-haul flights that sank the company into debt
Of course the leaseholders want to see some utilisation but the deal struck converted them to PBH and with dormant crews a lot more cash is needed to kick start the LH ops again. They are not the only ones in this situation and at least have a possible revenue stream from SH |
As they move 787 to Oslo for storage they announced they will start "international flights" on 737:
OSLO, June 16 (Reuters) - Norwegian Air will resume flights between Copenhagen and the Danish city of Aalborg from July 1, making it the carrier’s first route outside Norway following the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic, it said in a statement on Tuesday. |
Its not sent to Oslo for “storage” but for MAINT and engine change according to the company. International flights to be announced tomorrow..
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Originally Posted by Kirks gusset
(Post 10811876)
They are not the only ones in this situation and at least have a possible revenue stream from SH
Problem is supply and demand. You have to fly first before passengers book. MoL can afford to fly with a loss to start up routes and boost passenger confidence. Easy probably as well. Network carriers use cargo to cover some cost to restart routes. Wonder what Norwegian business plan is. |
As you would expect, all dates in June are unavailable on the Norwegian.com website but, not sure if it’s a glitch, but it appears there are flights available to book from July.
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It’s being reported in Norway that Norwegian are increasing their fleet from 8 to 20 aircraft and opening up 70 routes from the 01st of July.
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restarting now with 76 routes indeed. Hopefully more in the future and many of us back 🤞
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"She told me to sit anywhere
So I looked around And I noticed there wasn't a chair ... " Isn't it good ... |
More than 300 pilots and 600 cabin crew from the company’s bases in Norway will operate 20 aircraft, with about 200 pilots and 400 cabin crew being brought back from layoffs, the budget carrier said. What about the UK and Spanish Crews? will they get a shot at "direct employment" |
Doesn't look like it so far...
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In the case of Spanish crews, this is to be decided in court probably at the end of the summer. Having said that, a favorable sentence of "direct employment" as you called it, would only mean that norwegian is liable for the expenses associated to redundancy packages and not necessarily that they're going to keep the crew. It's just that it won't be for free.
What's important right now is that norwegian remains alive and that it's able to ramp up slowly but surely. For this small increase in the summer, only crews from Norway will be brought back to work, which is a little start. |
It is amusing reading here sometimes.
So many people who all believe they know how Norwegian should have been run in the past or going forward. Not enough misery at your own airlines to worry about? Why all the speculation that Norwegian will need plenty of B737 and B787 pilots to start up again and that there are not enough aspiring pilots or experienced pilots from the middle east to make that happen. Are you all oblivious to the fact that many if not all of their current pilots and recently laid off pilots (many of whom are still current with LPC and OPC) are available to fly again. Especially since they have not gone elsewhere in the current climate. Why would they be struggling to find people and typerate them or do difference courses for other pilots when they have a ready supply. Are you suggesting that they should not re hire their old staff, and why should´t they? Because some guys are prepared perhaps to snatch up the jobs by undercutting salaries? If you are prepared to go down that road, then at least you already know what kind of airline you have joined. Seeing how many pilots will be available in the market after corona I would not be surprised if many of the guys who have blamed Norwegian for everything that is wrong with the industry are prepared to join ahead of laid off pilots just to save their own ass. Reading some of the comments makes it sound as if Norwegian are trying to start a long haul operation from scratch. |
300 pilots back, 2700 to go !
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