My wish is that none of this would have happened. And that norwegian, like most other companies, would have sit down with their many unions to downsize or even close but according to regulations, CLA's, MSL, binding declarations, social responsibility, a severance package iaw local laws, a clear pathway to return to duty when possible iaw MSL and not by asking to resend your CV as if they didn't know you, and basically with some dignity.

My guess is that they're going to be crushed in court for not doing the above, and that the new owners are not going to like the fact that such court proceedings were not disclosed during their sales pitch for their support.

And that's why they kept us all connected and supporting to make it look like we were such a unified workforce of "red nose warriors" when now the only thing that's left is a complete torned down staff, who feel betrayed in most bases, and who are obviously seeking protection from a judge with no delay.

Surely the whole point of agencies was to avoid “ social responsibility “. Otherwise what purpose did it serve ? You were a service provider , nothing more .

I wish you luck with any form of recompense but I hold out no hope

Can a fully owned subsidiary claim to be just an "agency"? Nice try but I doubt the Labour Court will see it that way.

Notwithstanding the moral issues, or indeed the accountability of the CEO in these matters, the legal position extracted from general corporate laws in the USA state:

As we may be aware, global corporate laws vary, however in general tend to harmonise to avoid companies "county dodging " to their own advantage, Tax Laws are a completely different scenario.

Now in Europe Should the court adhere to the European laws, then pretty much game over

Without oversimplifying the issue, if an employee did something that brought the company into disrepute whilst representing Norwegian, then presumably, the issue would be between NAS and that person - not a third party? For example, a pilot making any decision is acting as an agent for Norwegian - not OSM et al.

Furthermore, surely there is an ‘implied contract’ between between an employee and Norwegian even if OSM handle the admin?

Rishworth, GlobalCrew or OSM (or whoever the heck it was that employed me during my short tenure) have everything covered. Lots of people will claim Norwegian was the actual employer because it was Norwegian that dictated the schedule, provided the uniform and all materials (including iPad/phone allowance) but they're wrong. The "employment" test (at least in the UK) is only used to decide your tax status as a contractor, not there to help you in any way. But I'm happy to be proven wrong. It would seem an agency employer can put put whatever they like into an employment contract these days. If you sign it, unless there is specific written legislation saying that can't do something, you have no recourse. Below is a snippet of my contract.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....836f5201df.png

The UK workers have not made the same claims against the company as the Unions are attempting in Spain. OSM UK is paying staff according to the furlough scheme, and like thousands of other UK based airline crews this appears to be the norm, people are accepting it, at the moment, even BA has indicated it will provide only the minimum severance pay, not enhanced redundancy packages.
The unions in Spain are trying to insist the crews there were de facto employees of NAS and thus entitled to certain termination conditions according to Spanish employment laws.
Forgetting the A-typical employment practices, the UK are used to this type of "agency agreement" and as far as we know no pilots are trying to go down a similar route to the Spanish.
At the end of the day the UK jobs have gone and if the crews can at least get something that's better than nothing. The rest of Europe appears to be paying circa 5000 euros a month whilst the companies furlough, but it varies from state to state

Kirks gusset;

Everyone in Spain is employed by Norwegian Spain( NAR Es) and not by agencies. They were forced to change that. Ryanair just lost a court case in the Canaries crews and if Norwegian tries the same they'll loose too also because Courts in Spain are usually employee friendly and are familiar with these ""schemes".

There are strong speculations in the norwegian press that the low interest of Norwegian's current management, and specially the chairman, in commiting to sign up for new shares is a signal of changes to come. One newspaper said the chairman's 10k euro equivalent spend would be less than his garden furniture budget for the summer.

I see my earlier reply was deleted - no reason or notification given. Just disappeared, wow. Interesting, and telling.

I wish SEPLA well in their fight. But they cannot "win", as even if the labour-friendly Spanish rule in their favour, my prediction is NAS will simply bankrupt the company and they will get nothing.

And perhaps the best outcome anyway.

I hope the state Unemployment benefits in Spain are better than the Furlough benefits.

I´ve also had some posts deleted and I don´t know why. I´m hoping for a technical glitch rather than censorship.

In regards to the above, is not that simple. NAS indeed can bankrupt their Spanish subsidiary (NAR ES) anytime the same way as you can go now and rob a bank. But there are consequences for breaking the law. In the former, if a judge hands down a sentence to NAS requiring them to consider NAR ES employees (1300 spanish crews) as their own, then it will make NAS liable for paying the severance and redundancy claims as per spanish law. Obviusly you can still go and disobey a court sentence, but then, like in any other country, impounding procedures start, including the seizure of property like aircraft landing in Spanish soil and other assets in order to comply with the judgment.

Spain is not the old west. And when they bite, they don´t let go that easily I´m afraid...

Virgin are planning on hoovering up the capacity with extra destinations and flights from LHR in 2021, that's assuming they survive!

For NAS it's not if, but when the cash runs out, and it may be very difficult to access further funds meaning the survival plan may already be in jeopardy.

You've got cheap aircraft, cheap fuel, Gatwick slots, historically low interest rates on financing, and sadly- cheap crew. And out of Gatwick you have a profitable business. Somebody is going to come in and pick up the pieces post CV.

Thats exactly what I said several posts ago.

Maybe the new American and Irish owners will realise it makes no sense to be paying for idle aircraft next Monday?

All you need now is passengers and a working business model, and bob is your uncle

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#27e60e587cdf

The real values of the slots have fallen dramatically in 2020, no NAS flights, no BA, no Virgin, perhaps even a reduction in TUI flights we could be looking at something like 35% of the slots becoming available this summer (what's left of it!) and a fire sale. GAL can reduce their overheads simply by closing one terminal but the airlines are still left with fixed costs for parking, maintenance and movements.

If you are an airline depending on the collateral value of these you will be in trouble. BA don't care they just want to protect their LHR position and Virgin will re-group there if they continue. If Wizz move into LGW they will be a tick in the side of Easy, but EJ does not have the cash to pick up the extra free slots at this time.

As expect Spanish politicians will back up the workers if Norwegian wants to pretend they don't "know anyone"


e24.no/naeringsliv/i/e8Vnml/spansk-politiker-stoetter-fagforeninger-i-sak-mot-norwegian

As harsh as it may sound, but the world will not be standing still and waiting for Norwegian to complete a rather vague for now turnaround plan which is estimated to take upwards of one year. Lots and lots of things can happen by then. Think a Wizz air base at LGW, Virgin Atlantic return, easyJet utilizing some of the now vacant LGW slots unless Sir Stelios gets his way, possibly additional Ryanair flights on the routes which proved to be profitable with Norwegian... All the profitable bits and pieces will be snatched up by the stronger ones - leaving what?

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacifi...n-air-/1847944

Didn’t see that coming! Why would a Chinese company (and ultimately the Chinese government) be interested in a struggling Western airline? Or is this standard practice?

Well is not like they bought shares on their own. It's the result of the swap for equity between lessors and bondholders.

In the case of China is thru one of the main lessors which, indeed belongs to the Chinese government.

Next few months will be interesting as the interest of the lessors (now also the owners) is to keep aircraft flying and not in the ground, particularly when they're only getting paid by the hour until next summer.

Sad to see NAS total share capitalisation dropped to below £35m today.
Similar value to Sunderland AFC.

And they have been relegated 2 leagues in 2 years. I hope not but fear a similar decline for NAS

I read the leasing companies as part of the deal have voting rights. I presume this means seats at the top table and not just ordinary share voting rights. In that case it won't be a pleasant few years as the leasing companies claw back all that is owed plus interest before exiting.

That don't add up. Sample: one leasing company alone flaggged today 335 million shares in the company as 10.9 % of the total shares, and they traded above 2 nkr each today.
After all the new shares is added there will be 3 billion shares in circulation and that price would give a valuation of above 500 million pounds.
I doubt it would be much less in the accounts. They did convert approximately that amount of debt to capital and they haven't spent the 300 million government loan yet.
Even if the share price goes down to the expected 1 nkr a share it would still be valued well above 250 million pound.

Or nursing the airline back to good health, before taking the exit with a profit. Having the worlds biggest leasing company AerCap, as owners, will be a nice instrument in getting a decent compensation out of Boeing 🤑🤑🤑

" I read the leasing companies as part of the deal have voting rights. I presume this means seats at the top table and not just ordinary share voting rights. In that case it won't be a pleasant few years as the leasing companies claw back all that is owed plus interest before exiting"

Quote: "Norwegian’s CEO Jacob Schram said the restructuring gives the airline a platform to continue, but pointed out the challenges ahead: “The months ahead will remain challenging and with a high degree of uncertainty for the industry. Norwegian will still need to collaborate closely with a number of creditors as the Company currently has limited revenues.” "

That limited revenue looks set to continue for many months. Prior to the restructure, Schram announced the company would be operating in “hibernation mode” for the remainder of 2020, and that full operations would not resume until 2022.

The writing is already on the wall, unless there is a huge cash injection the company will probably go bust and the Chinese will take the aircraft as the US/China trade wars have slowed orders up, this would suit both BOC Aviation and AerCap.

Writing off the debts was Hobson's choice and by now the old creditors (now shareholders) have come to terms with the fact they are caught with their trousers around their ankles.

Big fish eats small fish, and becomes even a bigger fish. Same applies to Qatar having a a 25,1% stake in IAG, for example.

​​​​​​ Their investment came from a forced conversion of debt to equity as part of the company rescue. BOC aviation is an aircraft owner.

Ah, thanks.

i wondered if it was a Chinese company asset stripping!

This move is possibly more about BOC protecting their assets.

It was either an equity take or petition to a bankruptcy court. They don't want to be owners of a debt ridden airline.

Will Norwegian Gatwick 787 be open to applications from newcomers, come January?:E

I very much doubt they’ll need any newbies

I work for AirFrance at JFK and I have to say I miss our Norwegian colleagues. Best wishes to you all and I hope the best for you!

Looks like NAS have refused to negotiate with SEPLA.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1f174f417.jpeg

Probably behind the drag curve, apologies, but yesterday's National Newspaper business section Headline was "Norwegian Air Saved after GBP221m bailout." Er, "saved" is explained as "The budget airline will now go into hibernation for a year, cutting staff,grounding or returning most of its fleet and only flying between Scandanavian countries". Cripes, is that "saving" ?

Only an airframe driver , I admit, but , all this swopping of debt for equity leaves me very cold. A bit like equity release on my house , I guess, a bit , eh ? But accountant yuck speak for a very grim outlook I venture to suggest.

Selling 400m new shares at 8p each. I Should have taken a punt with money I saved during lock-down...........but.................you know............?

The bailout comes from the norwegian government . Thus the focus is on intra Scandinavia ops, I think the plan is 7 x 737 until the end of the yesr.

Hats off for trying SELPA, however since the "share deal" the company has no real assets and no spare cash and it's a bit difficult to see what can be gained from this challenge other than being a inconvenient pain in the arse.
I'm sure it's been ventilated before, but if the union felt the transfer was illegal why didn't they take action at the time? and if the company had been doing well, would they have bothered at all.
More effective action may be gained from refusing to handle any NAS aircraft in Spain, surely the airport staff will side with SELPA?
Notwithstanding the above, its still a crap deal for the crews, and some are still in denial of their fate...

And if Norwegian do decide to bring their aircraft out of hibernation at short notice, and they’ve managed to hack off all the crew, how easy and quick will it be to recruit and train newbies whilst the other airlines are primed and ready to go?

SEPLA is not "trying". They´re actually taking action and following the legal course. The mediation is just a legal requirement in order for them to go to court and nobody expected anything from that 20 minute meeting. This is not about the company having "spare cash to be cute". This is about norwegian following the law as any other airline is, and not getting rid of crews as if they were used toners.

Of course no court action would be taking place if the "company had being doing well". Because until now, the company had been behaving iaw the law. But now that they have "abandoned" their crews in Spain as if they didn´t know them, is when that behaviour can be challenged in court. And not before.

Lastly, this is not about crews going thru "denial of their fate". This is about defending their rights and following the law. And the law in Spain states for procedures and financial compensation when getting rid of permanent employees. Again, like any other enterprise, whether an airline or a beauty salon.

And of course norwegian has assets. And cash as well. How in the world would they be alive otherwise...

This is not about being an "inconvenient pain in the arse". This is about norwegian taking social responsibility, it´s about respect and protection to their staff that has been supporting their business for years, and for them to play a fair game like any other carrier in the civilised world. And trust me, this will be achieved for the good of everyone, and most particularly for norwegian itself. Just give it some time.

No point fighting with the rocket-sofa-pilots who love to see others get screwed by the comment "denial of their fate" as if it was enjoying writing that... probably he can't get much joy of life anyways. Pprune is full of these ones!
We will stay on course in life and keep our head high! Still a lot of water to run under the bridge...very old saying and very true.