Originally Posted by Daysleeper
(Post 10177243)
I hesitate to post this and wonder which Brexit thread it should be in but with a talent search like this the UK is buggered:
DfT is advertising for a Head of Aviation for EU Exit Negotiations (Pays £62K) and They are also looking for Senior Policy advisors on international aviation to paying all of £40-45K. For an even bigger laugh both jobs are open to EEA citizens. |
Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi
(Post 10177581)
Gertrude - Practically no one here wants Brexit, but we are where we are, and on both sides, we'd like the respective aviation authorities to be allowed to work towards some sort of resolution. For Brussels to step in to block this process out of pure spite, is petulant and beneath contempt (and in the end will bite them in the arse, for the reasons the Times article explained).
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Joe le Taxi
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the times article reporting that Brussels has banned easa from cooperating with the ukcaa on post Brexit arrangements. Thus, we had from The Times the claim that "Brussels bars aviation chiefs from preparing for no-deal", based on an unconfirmed assertion that the European Commission had intervened after the aerospace industry had contacted Barnier, specifically to prevent EASA and the CAA from holding talks. However, had the paper taken more note of what I had written in my second piece, they would perhaps have understood that – in the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement and the transition period - it is not possible for EASA to enter into talks with the CAA to secure the optimum outcome, a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA). This, I observed, is a full-blown treaty and can only be negotiated by the EU and the UK government. And, to do that, they need to use the formal procedure set out in Article 218 of the consolidated treaties. Such negotiations are way above the pay scale of the agencies and, as with the broader post-Brexit relationship, the negotiation process can only be undertaken once the UK has left the EU and formally acquired the status of a "third country". Failing the settlement of a BASA, there is provision within the Basic Regulation (Regulation (EC) No 216/2008) for inter-agency agreements between EASA and the "aeronautical authorities of third countries" (Article 27). But, once again, the qualifying requirement is for the UK to assume the status of a third country. Either of the above solutions, of course, as Dr. North says, would only be possible following a negotiated Withdrawal Agreement after which UK would become a "third country" and enter a transition period to 31 December 2020. A "crash out" Hard Brexit with no Agreement and hence no transition period, would lead to Aerospace/Air Transport Armageddon. |
Prior knowledge of airspace and the aviation sector is an advantage but not necessary. From the ouside looking in, the UK's approach to Brexit seems to be a mix of "Lance Corporal Jones" and "Private Walker", in the face of the reality being "Private Frazer"* *look at the Royal Mail's Dad's Army Stamps JAS |
It would seem PPRUNE is stuffed with remoaners. We're leaving, get over it.
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Good bye, Airbus, it was nice to know you...
radiosutch
Maybe the Airbus employees currently making wings at Broughton won't be sharing your casual insouciance tonight. Check out The Times: Airbus is set to be the first big manufacturer to pull investment from Britain after losing patience with Theresa May's stalled Brexit negotiations ...... |
A little more on The Times report of Airbus pulling out of UK, despite directly employing 14,000 personnel and supporting a further 110,000 jobs in the supply chain:
Even if Mrs May succeeds in managing an “orderly Brexit”, the manufacturer makes clear it will “refrain from extending its UK suppliers and partners base” until it sees how the new relationship with the EU will work. The prime minister’s promised transition phase that ends in December 2020 does not allow enough time to prevent disruption likely to cost the firm billions of pounds in delays, lost orders and angry customers, Airbus says. “The clock is ticking. If we decide now that we need one or two months of additional inventory because we are worried about these components getting stuck in the docks of Dover or Calais, then from a contingency point of view I have to do something,” Mr Williams said. “These are decisions we are in the process of making right now. We are in the process of instructing our suppliers to begin ramping up safety stocks of components.” Looking to future production increases, he said: “The question for me is should I be doing that in the UK with all the uncertainty that I have? Or should we be starting to prepare alternative sources so I can protect the business in the long term? We have to look after our customers and shareholders.” Expanding operations in China was one alternative being prepared, he added. The company says it laid out its concerns at a private meeting with Mrs May, also attended by Rolls-Royce and others, three weeks ago. Greg Clark, the business secretary, is understood to have been pressing big companies to go public as he and Philip Hammond, the chancellor, fight moves led by Boris Johnson to push the government into a more aggressive stance in Brexit talks. Mr Clark cited Airbus in a speech yesterday as he underlined the importance of a Brexit that did not stop the movement of highly skilled workers. A government spokeswoman said: “We have made significant progress towards agreeing a deep and special partnership with the EU to ensure trade remains as free and frictionless as possible, including in aerospace . . . We do not expect a no-deal scenario to arise.” |
My god. Just reach a f****** agreement. Or at least establish a long transition period so EU citizens that are somehow related to UK CAA can get a way out.
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Originally Posted by superflanker
(Post 10179414)
My god. Just reach a f****** agreement. Or at least establish a long transition period so EU citizens that are somehow related to UK CAA can get a way out.
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Originally Posted by radiosutch
(Post 10178726)
It would seem PPRUNE is stuffed with remoaners. We're leaving, get over it.
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What the hell happened to the transition deal?????
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Originally Posted by superflanker
(Post 10179527)
What the hell happened to the transition deal?????
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Regardless of that, EASA should give a window to the people to change their licences, etc. Not doing that will harm people that are not even British.
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Licence Transfer
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Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10179547)
And in my specific case, I have not license yet, and I am finishing my ground school exams. There isn't any document that explains my options or even if that this exams will remain valid or not after the deadline (no specific mention to this in the pdf, as exams are not a license nor a certificate). And I am sure I am not the only one going through this specific case. And I am sure that there are a lot of different cases to solve. EASA should look after this things. |
Originally Posted by superflanker
(Post 10179554)
There isn't any document that explains my options or even if that this exams will remain valid or not after the deadline
If I were in the process of acquiring a professional licence in the UK just right now I think I'd be looking to move to an EU27 country to finish the course and make sure I get my application in before May 29. Provided of course you can get an EU27 passport (many Brits can get an Irish passport just by asking nicely (well, and spending a few months shuffling loads of paper around and paying a few hundred quid), but sadly not all can). |
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
(Post 10179559)
If I were in the process of acquiring a professional licence in the UK just right now I think I'd be looking to move to an EU27 country to finish the course and make sure I get my application in before May 29. Provided of course you can get an EU27 passport (many Brits can get an Irish passport just by asking nicely (well, and spending a few months shuffling loads of paper around and paying a few hundred quid), but sadly not all can).
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Originally Posted by superflanker
(Post 10179570)
They should release another pdf named WHAT THE HELL TO DO.
You could retake the exams in Spain? |
superflanker
You might find the following links useful. The first one will download: NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS: WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU RULES IN THE FIELD OF REGULATED PROFESSIONS AND THE RECOGNITION OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS. The second one will list the professions in question (airline pilot included). I'd recommend that you get your licence before 29 March 2019 and then transfer it to that of another EU nation (Spain/Ireland?). Needless to say, this situation and many other similar ones would not apply if the UK "government" opted to remain in EEA as an EFTA member. |
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
(Post 10179575)
Like I said, "they" can't do that, because "they" haven't a clue.
You could retake the exams in Spain? |
Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10179578)
superflanker
You might find the following links useful. The first one will download: NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS: WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU RULES IN THE FIELD OF REGULATED PROFESSIONS AND THE RECOGNITION OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS. The second one will list the professions in question (airline pilot included). I'd recommend that you get your licence before 29 March 2019 and then transfer it to that of another EU nation (Spain/Ireland?). Needless to say, this situation and many other similar ones would not apply if the UK "government" opted to remain in EEA as an EFTA member. RECOGNITIONS OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS RECOGNISED BEFORE THE WITHDRAWAL DATE The withdrawal of the United Kingdom does not affect decisions on the recognition of professional qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom taken before the withdrawal date on the basis of Directive 2005/36/EC by an EU-27 Member State. So, I hope that the exams remain valid 3 years until you get the IR as usual. I am actually going to get a Spanish license, so no transfer needed. About getting the license before 29 march, yes, this is the only thing that provides 100% chance of not having to resit the exams, but It's less than a year... Some times the MEIR certification alone can take up to 6 months. An better not talk about the time between you apply fot a license and when that license is issued by the national authorities. Again, thank you to all that you contribute with your knowledge in this hell. |
Well, as i have have heard first hand in one of his visits around europe and the uk from Mr. Barnier that indeed both the norway model and the swiss way are on the table and have been both very directly and robustly declined by the UK (as, of course, they include free movement), i do believe it is somewhat reaking of project fear to say that any deal with the UK has to be more restricting than those two, but i am sure you have some links to prove your view. What the EU can not offer is any deal that is better than the existing ones. Of course, both Norway and Switzerland have border posts and controls, something that both sides do not want at the irish border and which is a big issue. And it is absolutely fine to adjust any existing deal once the technology is actually there, however, Brexit is not happening at some unknown point in the future, it is happening now, we are already in the transition period which will end March of next year if no deal has been ratified by each and every parliament of the 28 states. A process which does indeed takes quite some time bit is of course required in a democratic process. I realise that there has been some editing of this thread, and this post was a reply to a post by Brexiteers who, funny enough, states his location is in the western part of germany. |
Airport Certification
This link shows the UK airport certificates , set to become invalid on 30th March 2019 and which will need to be reissued under new UK legislation about to be passed. The new European Union (Withdrawal) Act embraces the EU acquis and scoops up all the Directives and Regulations from the EU and makes them domestic UK law, in a new category of law called Retained EU Law. In particular, new Article 68 will apply. This law will give UK the legal basis to certify these airports for domestic use but without EU recognition, they can't be used internationally. They WILL be confined to domestic traffic.
Hopefully, the UK Government will be on top of the situation and realise that a "crash out" Hard Brexit would make negotiation for airport recognition a little problematical. Fingers crossed that a Withdrawal Agreement can be finalised at the upcoming European Council on 27/28 June. |
Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10181454)
This link shows the UK airport certificates , set to become invalid on 30th March 2019 and which will need to be reissued under new UK legislation about to be passed. The new European Union (Withdrawal) Act embraces the EU acquis and scoops up all the Directives and Regulations from the EU and makes them domestic UK law, in a new category of law called Retained EU Law. In particular, new Article 68 will apply. This law will give UK the legal basis to certify these airports for domestic use but without EU recognition, they can't be used internationally. They WILL be confined to domestic traffic.
Hopefully, the UK Government will be on top of the situation and realise that a "crash out" Hard Brexit would make negotiation for airport recognition a little problematical. Fingers crossed that a Withdrawal Agreement can be finalised at the upcoming European Council on 27/28 June. Does this mean that EU and possibly UK fleets will be uninsured to operate to uk airfields from international destinations perchance? |
Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10181454)
Hopefully, the UK Government will be on top of the situation and realise that a "crash out" Hard Brexit would make negotiation for airport recognition a little problematical. Fingers crossed that a Withdrawal Agreement can be finalised at the upcoming European Council on 27/28 June. |
Considering they've had two years and are still hoping it will be all right on the night I wouldn't bet a bucket of warm spit on this ending well I'm afraid.......
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Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10181454)
The new European Union (Withdrawal) Act embraces the EU acquis and scoops up all the Directives and Regulations from the EU and makes them domestic UK law, in a new category of law called Retained EU Law. In particular, new Article 68 will apply. This law will give UK the legal basis to certify these airports for domestic use but without EU recognition, they can't be used internationally. They WILL be confined to domestic traffic.
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Highcirrus, surely Article 127 will be reached if common sense prevails.The loss of international traffic from my regional would be the death of it.
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Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
(Post 10181707)
Highcirrus, surely Article 127 will be reached if common sense prevails.The loss of international traffic from my regional would be the death of it.
...or is this only a negotiation tactic? :suspect: |
In the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement and a subsequent Transition Period, it will not be possible for EASA to enter into talks with the UK CAA to secure the optimum outcome, a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA). Hence UK airports will remain closed to all EU traffic immediately post-Brexit (and other blocs in the absence of similar BASAs). If anyone is looking for signs of "common sense" from UK's present "government" watch closely the failure of Theresa May & Co to present coherent proposals for an Agreement in Brussels this week on 27/28 June. EU may either pull out of talks right afterwards, reckoning a hopeless case, or keep things lurching onwards to November 2018, to give EU Stakeholders more time to prepare for Armageddon at 23.00 hrs UTC (00.00 CET) 29/30 March 2019. In whatever event, it looks likely that the 70 European Research Group (ERG) ultra-right UK MPs have control and are steering the nation to disaster. Prepare to hunker down fellow professionals.
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Dr Richard North writes today specifically about Heathrow and the effect of a "no deal" Brexit
Then, there is not only the EASA aerodrome certification to consider. There are also the issues of safety certification of air traffic management and air navigation systems, where mutual recognition is required, and no agreements will be in place if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. Thus, even if it was theoretically possible for EU-based aircraft to land at Heathrow, that is not practically possible without the use of air traffic management and air navigation systems. On top of this, there are the wider issues of open skies agreements and slot allocations, which also control commercial access to airports such as Heathrow. Putting the fragmented areas together, it is very hard to see how, in the context of a "no deal" Brexit, aviation agreements with the EU can survive. There is bound to be a very substantial effect on European traffic and, because EU standards are linked with the US and others through bilateral agreements and working arrangements, transatlantic and Asian traffic may also be affected. There is nothing, of course, that cannot be negotiated with the EU, but in the light of what appear to be deteriorating relations and with no Withdrawal Agreement in sight, the possibility of a "no deal" Brexit cannot be rules out. That would almost certainly bring international traffic at Heathrow (and all other UK airports) to a complete halt. Getting the airport back in operation though would not be that simple. There is not one agreement to deal with, but a host of issues, including the highly technical safety issues, which require formal procedures to resolve. One would see pressure for emergency action but, if the EU stands its ground, it could be several months before full functionality is restored. After such a break in operations, and the certainty that UK businesses will be looking elsewhere, it would be unwise to expect traffic volumes be automatically restored. Reduced trade volumes will affect freight and business travellers, while uncertainty over visas and freedom of movement will undoubtedly affect tourism. |
There is going to be effects that nobody envisaged.
Some of them such as current EU trade agreements being renegotiated/cancelled as the carrot has gone have been mentioned but pooh poohed by those that are anti Brexit. I too live in the EU and its not mentioned locally either. They are told by Brussels everything is going to be great nothing to worry about and the media are very selective what they report. I can think of several Eu airlines that are kept out of bankruptcy by UK traffic. And they really don't have enough cash reserves to last a couple of weeks never mind a month at the beginning of the season especially if nobody has been booking over the winter. Its going to effect different countries in different ways, how survivable that is I really have no clue. No UK tourists and a substantially reduced market for agricultural product which is time limited before it rots will be national crisis for some. Other countries they won't notice the difference for months or unless the others cause the ECB problems. 29th of March is a nasty date. It kills the summer season from crop growing to tourist bookings for 2019 what ever happens. To be honest I already think it to late to sort out. |
Commission to EU27: Prepare airports for a ‘no-deal’ Brexit
From Politico.eu
Filip Cornelis, the director of aviation at the Commission’s transport department, advised countries to be ready for the possibility of the U.K. crashing out of the EU without a deal on March 29 next year, saying that they should consider their customs handling capacity and prepare for impacts on security, market access, safety regulations and passenger rights. JAS |
UK Licence Conversion
A couple of days ago I picked up in conversation with a former colleague that two UK organizations he knows of (major players in the industry) are requiring personnel to convert to non-UK EASA licences. He tells me that there is now a steady flow to swop existing UK tickets for Irish ones, at €600 a go, in anticipation of a hard Brexit.
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Why so cryptic. What major players |
Googlebug You are kidding, right? Do you want me run over by a steamroller? Wait until the next set of official announcements.
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The British 'government' is unlikely to have grasped the most elementary of impacts to aviation which is already befalling them. Airbus have long wanted to move the next gen wings to Germany or France - now they have to. Rolls Royce was very clear before the referendum that they would not invest further in the UK and are shifting expertise to Germany - the 4000 lays offs in Derby are Brexit not efficiency related. As an FI in conti Europe I await the geniuses Fox/Davis/Johnson to pull a miracle from the hat at the last minute - but not holding my breath.
Still at least the Brexiteers of Wales, Derby, Sunderland etc are getting their just desserts. Pity we are all going down the tube with them into Germany circa 1930's. |
Are we seeing a pattern here guys?
British Airways’ parent company, IAG, has astonished the aviation market by launching a new Vienna-based subsidiary airline with less than three weeks’ notice before flights begin. |
Is delaying the Brexit date on the table?
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superflanker No, that would require unanimous assent of the EU 28 nations (yes, UK as well) and time and patience is running short.
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