No Joy in Zurich
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Pilots flying into ZRH, ATCO's et-al
A note from an ex-flight type working the grounds nowadays.
We're all to aware of the situations generated by politicians in Switzerland as well as in Germany. From your local wannabe Kennedy to the national John Hancock, everybody got their two cents to give to the mess; proving Al-Gorge bin Bush that even old Europe has a well running democracy!
1. I don’t work for SkyGuide but am certain that there is no preferential services given to anyone in the air as on the ground with perhaps the only exception being Air force one.
2. Phraseology on the ground ought to be the same as in the air as Apron contr. has received he same training together all other ATCO's (sorry Herr Klink).
3. VOR DME 28 with visual circling on 14 and 16 LH and RH as well as visual charted 34 are currently being proven and flight tested in particular for heavy A/C who are unable to land on 28 when i.e. contaminated.
The heroic trial of the CLX 28 swing on 32 is most likely to be implemented. I had the fortune to try it my self on a MD11 sim and I must say it was rather exiting to say the least.
The problems in finding some smart way to fly in and out of ZRH are not of a technical nature but as it was mentioned before, political. Our capabilities are therefore limited. (try to explain a politician all Pans-ops, ICAO, JAR, FAR FOMs in a nutshell in a 2 hour timeframe!!)
Ya'll rest assured that we do all we can in our powers to provide the best services that politics allows us to.
A note from an ex-flight type working the grounds nowadays.
We're all to aware of the situations generated by politicians in Switzerland as well as in Germany. From your local wannabe Kennedy to the national John Hancock, everybody got their two cents to give to the mess; proving Al-Gorge bin Bush that even old Europe has a well running democracy!
1. I don’t work for SkyGuide but am certain that there is no preferential services given to anyone in the air as on the ground with perhaps the only exception being Air force one.
2. Phraseology on the ground ought to be the same as in the air as Apron contr. has received he same training together all other ATCO's (sorry Herr Klink).
3. VOR DME 28 with visual circling on 14 and 16 LH and RH as well as visual charted 34 are currently being proven and flight tested in particular for heavy A/C who are unable to land on 28 when i.e. contaminated.
The heroic trial of the CLX 28 swing on 32 is most likely to be implemented. I had the fortune to try it my self on a MD11 sim and I must say it was rather exiting to say the least.
The problems in finding some smart way to fly in and out of ZRH are not of a technical nature but as it was mentioned before, political. Our capabilities are therefore limited. (try to explain a politician all Pans-ops, ICAO, JAR, FAR FOMs in a nutshell in a 2 hour timeframe!!)
Ya'll rest assured that we do all we can in our powers to provide the best services that politics allows us to.
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Great thread - A subject close to my heart....
ZRH ATC -
You do not help us by asking to keep 180kts to 4 miles with a 20kt tail wind in a slippery jet onto R/W 14 (I've had this request made in an A320 and a B757). Particularly as you have the 'Alitalia spur' that juts out at 6dme with a Radio Altimiter read out of 1010ft!! The last time this request was made and we said 'unable to comply' - you told us to go around (Which we did - no arguments). It was without doubt the most spiteful bit of Air Traffic Controlling I have ever witnessed.
Your job is no doubt made far more difficult by the environment, the politicians, the locals etc..Just learn a little humility and empathy. I would suggest you all need to spend a few days in the simulator understanding 'energy considerations versus speed requests' so that the next time I take an aircraft into ZRH R/W14 ILS and the wind at 6000ft is 300/35kts, you don't ask us to keep 180 kts to 4 miles. Otherwise I might be asked to spitefully go-around again.
Admission of fault is the first step towards a safer operation.
ZRH ATC -
You do not help us by asking to keep 180kts to 4 miles with a 20kt tail wind in a slippery jet onto R/W 14 (I've had this request made in an A320 and a B757). Particularly as you have the 'Alitalia spur' that juts out at 6dme with a Radio Altimiter read out of 1010ft!! The last time this request was made and we said 'unable to comply' - you told us to go around (Which we did - no arguments). It was without doubt the most spiteful bit of Air Traffic Controlling I have ever witnessed.
Your job is no doubt made far more difficult by the environment, the politicians, the locals etc..Just learn a little humility and empathy. I would suggest you all need to spend a few days in the simulator understanding 'energy considerations versus speed requests' so that the next time I take an aircraft into ZRH R/W14 ILS and the wind at 6000ft is 300/35kts, you don't ask us to keep 180 kts to 4 miles. Otherwise I might be asked to spitefully go-around again.
Admission of fault is the first step towards a safer operation.
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Land ASAP
Fortunately I work on the ACC side of things and cant be blamed for making you go around. I will readilly admit though that we have a number of pr1cks working in our company who think they are GOD and you will comply at all cost, no matter how ridiculous it might be. I have worked at several ATC providers and you have them same type of folks at every company. Same in your airline I suppose. But, we also have some really super guys who try hard to provide a good service, give the best routing they can and try and get you to the requested cruising level.
As far as rwy28 is concerned. Its use is frustrating for us too. Much more work on our side having to bring all traffic on a right-handed approach while the departing tfc climbes out south of extended centerline rwy28. No matter if they departed from rwy16/32/34!! As I mentioned earlier, there will be delays when rwy28 is in use as the Approach fellows have to use a bigger spacing between landing aircraft of 5nm whereas they only need 3nm on rwy14.
The politicians make the rules and we are forced to abide....
Fortunately I work on the ACC side of things and cant be blamed for making you go around. I will readilly admit though that we have a number of pr1cks working in our company who think they are GOD and you will comply at all cost, no matter how ridiculous it might be. I have worked at several ATC providers and you have them same type of folks at every company. Same in your airline I suppose. But, we also have some really super guys who try hard to provide a good service, give the best routing they can and try and get you to the requested cruising level.
As far as rwy28 is concerned. Its use is frustrating for us too. Much more work on our side having to bring all traffic on a right-handed approach while the departing tfc climbes out south of extended centerline rwy28. No matter if they departed from rwy16/32/34!! As I mentioned earlier, there will be delays when rwy28 is in use as the Approach fellows have to use a bigger spacing between landing aircraft of 5nm whereas they only need 3nm on rwy14.
The politicians make the rules and we are forced to abide....
Delay? What delay?
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Swiss + Customer Service Get Real!
Having lived in Zurich for nearly 3 years now I can go on for hours about the customer service and lack thereof that is common in Switzerland. I suggest that you refrain from complaining. In my experience this only results in a) being ignored, as well as b) getting worse service after that. Apart from that its a great country. I do have sympathy with the people having to deal with all the political nimby rubbish though about flight paths runways etc (both Swiss and German)
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Not Flying For Fun Anymore?
Isn't it wonderful now and then to be able to hand-fly a challenging VOR/DME approach in IMC? ZRH is definitely less stressful than Kathmandu or Quito at night in the rain.
...So many people have lied down in their graves without having felt one drop of excitement.
...So many people have lied down in their graves without having felt one drop of excitement.
ex-Tanker
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Nurjo's Considered Comments...
Nurjo!
I don't believe you are really a pilot. Real pilots and ATC (see threads by ZRH and the easyJet and other pilots above) are true professionals who like to get pax to destinations on time, turn round on time and get out on time. When this doesn't work, they feel frustrated. This has nothing to do not being able to manipulate throttles and stick.
ZRH is a big mess for noise, terrain and political reasons. That it works at all is amazing. In an attempt to get "slugs"of aircraft in, ATC often requests highish speeds until a quite a late point. When someone behind gets close, they sometimes request an even later speed reduction point. If the pilots can manage this, they do, even though it means a lot of checks and chat late on in the approach, when things should ideally be settled and established. If they can't manage, ATC sometimes has no choice but to order a GA.
The terrain north of the field (Wannenberg) can cause the Mode 2C GPWS to come on in certain incomplete configurations if flying level at 4,000ft, adding to the stress. In IMC this requires a pull-up/ go-around. (Actually the Stadlerberg, closer in is not a problem and when Alitalia hit it they were following a defective GS indication and well below glide path.) One nice thing which can happen to you is a Swing Over from 14 ILS to RW 16 (as opposed to the dreadful SideStep the other way round) requiring disciplined visual flying and early corrections but saving up to eight minutes of taxy.
Once on the deck you taxy through a crossing maze of taxyways and opposing traffic and having turned round and prepared you take bets on how much slot delay you will get. It can be a lot, especially late in the evening, as Take Off traffic and Landing traffic vie for the same strip - from opposing directions! After take off, there is often a low level off due to the traffic situation and several frequency changes just as you are in cleanup/checklist work and anti-icing switching.
Go and have a look in ATC and you will soon see that those guys don't have it any better - restrictions due to all the above plus military traffic, gliders and light aircraft close by - also climbing/ descending traffic from Germany transiting through.
It has been getting tighter on all concerned for fifteen+ years now and I for one am heartily glad that it is no longer my home base, which it was for 25 years. Good luck to all concerned.
I don't believe you are really a pilot. Real pilots and ATC (see threads by ZRH and the easyJet and other pilots above) are true professionals who like to get pax to destinations on time, turn round on time and get out on time. When this doesn't work, they feel frustrated. This has nothing to do not being able to manipulate throttles and stick.
ZRH is a big mess for noise, terrain and political reasons. That it works at all is amazing. In an attempt to get "slugs"of aircraft in, ATC often requests highish speeds until a quite a late point. When someone behind gets close, they sometimes request an even later speed reduction point. If the pilots can manage this, they do, even though it means a lot of checks and chat late on in the approach, when things should ideally be settled and established. If they can't manage, ATC sometimes has no choice but to order a GA.
The terrain north of the field (Wannenberg) can cause the Mode 2C GPWS to come on in certain incomplete configurations if flying level at 4,000ft, adding to the stress. In IMC this requires a pull-up/ go-around. (Actually the Stadlerberg, closer in is not a problem and when Alitalia hit it they were following a defective GS indication and well below glide path.) One nice thing which can happen to you is a Swing Over from 14 ILS to RW 16 (as opposed to the dreadful SideStep the other way round) requiring disciplined visual flying and early corrections but saving up to eight minutes of taxy.
Once on the deck you taxy through a crossing maze of taxyways and opposing traffic and having turned round and prepared you take bets on how much slot delay you will get. It can be a lot, especially late in the evening, as Take Off traffic and Landing traffic vie for the same strip - from opposing directions! After take off, there is often a low level off due to the traffic situation and several frequency changes just as you are in cleanup/checklist work and anti-icing switching.
Go and have a look in ATC and you will soon see that those guys don't have it any better - restrictions due to all the above plus military traffic, gliders and light aircraft close by - also climbing/ descending traffic from Germany transiting through.
It has been getting tighter on all concerned for fifteen+ years now and I for one am heartily glad that it is no longer my home base, which it was for 25 years. Good luck to all concerned.
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ZRH - It would be nice if someone anonymously printed this out and stuck it on the wall of your coffee room!
If successful, I have a message for the nice lady who sent me around, "I am glad we're not married!"
If successful, I have a message for the nice lady who sent me around, "I am glad we're not married!"
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Well, there must be SOME reason the place is called Unique Airport Zurich.....
I flew to LSZH on a regular basis for about 5 years from 1990 to 1995 and occasionally thereafter and found ATC quite accomodating. All this was in turboprops and we usually got good service and even a special visual departure out of RWY 28 to save departure miles.
The situation with Germany has worsened things quite a lot and some of that seems to be the fault of Swiss politicians who felt they could bully Germany into accepting something for nothing......
I was always amazed how efficient ramp servicing in ZRH worked with quite a low number of staff for cleaning, loading, etc.
I flew to LSZH on a regular basis for about 5 years from 1990 to 1995 and occasionally thereafter and found ATC quite accomodating. All this was in turboprops and we usually got good service and even a special visual departure out of RWY 28 to save departure miles.
The situation with Germany has worsened things quite a lot and some of that seems to be the fault of Swiss politicians who felt they could bully Germany into accepting something for nothing......
I was always amazed how efficient ramp servicing in ZRH worked with quite a low number of staff for cleaning, loading, etc.
ex-Tanker
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Bullies...
Actually, the Germans bullied the Swiss. Although for many Black Forest dwellers, ZRH is the international airport of choice, they got up tight about the overflights (well above the few homes there) and got their transport minister to browbeat the luckless Moritz Leuenberger into agreeing to a very restrictive overflight policy.
There can be no comparison to the "visual noise"which the descending ships made over the Black Forest to the resulting fully configured powered approach at lower heights over the populated areas around the field. That's what you get when politicians with little technical knowledge negotiate complex issues.
As for "something for nothing", the Alpine transit concessions made by Switzerland can't be written off like that. In Austria you know all about this phenomenon too...
There can be no comparison to the "visual noise"which the descending ships made over the Black Forest to the resulting fully configured powered approach at lower heights over the populated areas around the field. That's what you get when politicians with little technical knowledge negotiate complex issues.
As for "something for nothing", the Alpine transit concessions made by Switzerland can't be written off like that. In Austria you know all about this phenomenon too...
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Mysterium
Hello Alpine Flyer!
I agree with you about the remarks on ZRH. But what really puzzles me is how on earth did you manage to get pprune registered in 1969?? That was more than a decade before the internet protocoll was introduced.
I agree with you about the remarks on ZRH. But what really puzzles me is how on earth did you manage to get pprune registered in 1969?? That was more than a decade before the internet protocoll was introduced.
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Glueball,
ZRH's VOR/DME 28 with it's 90 degree right turn on to the inbound radial and steep approach path is a lot trickier then Kathmandu's straight in step down VOR/DME approach. OK the missed approach at Kathmandu needs a lot more accuracy, but I find ZRH tightens the sphincter more then Kathmandu ever did.
ZRH's VOR/DME 28 with it's 90 degree right turn on to the inbound radial and steep approach path is a lot trickier then Kathmandu's straight in step down VOR/DME approach. OK the missed approach at Kathmandu needs a lot more accuracy, but I find ZRH tightens the sphincter more then Kathmandu ever did.
Thread Starter
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Although we all admit the approach to Runway 28 is a headache, try the Go aoround, which encompases all the scenic beauty of Switzerland plus a few nearby countries as well!!
I had to do this once about three years ago when someone didn't clear the runway properly, and the procedure is very long-winded, and uses a bucket of fuel!!!
I had to do this once about three years ago when someone didn't clear the runway properly, and the procedure is very long-winded, and uses a bucket of fuel!!!
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Aviatrix69 & Glueball
Read FewCloudy's post carefully.
Both your attitudes are questionable:Flying for fun, tossing coins,...etc. There's a time and place for everything.
The pax rather you flew properly than making fun. A professional attitude is required, you can have fun and knob around in a small AC where you just kill yourself not the family members of dozens of people.
If your company's trainers have any sense, you are both still FO's!
FO Janeway
Read FewCloudy's post carefully.
Both your attitudes are questionable:Flying for fun, tossing coins,...etc. There's a time and place for everything.
The pax rather you flew properly than making fun. A professional attitude is required, you can have fun and knob around in a small AC where you just kill yourself not the family members of dozens of people.
If your company's trainers have any sense, you are both still FO's!
FO Janeway
ex-Tanker
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ILS 28, and ILS 34
A while back I posted a newspaper report about a pending ILS installation RW 28. What happened to that we will have to ask
N38OUA or ZRH. This week flight testing was, however being done on the RW 34 ILS, so maybe things are moving.
The problem with VOR RW 28 is that in still wind or tailwind conditions it takes serious planning and execution to get the ROD working. In headwind conditions, which used always to be the case on this approach, before the politicians got in there, this was not a problem. This probably had quite a lot to do with the Crossair HS146 accident. There was a lot more to it than that, of course but it was probably a big contributing factor.
N38OUA or ZRH. This week flight testing was, however being done on the RW 34 ILS, so maybe things are moving.
The problem with VOR RW 28 is that in still wind or tailwind conditions it takes serious planning and execution to get the ROD working. In headwind conditions, which used always to be the case on this approach, before the politicians got in there, this was not a problem. This probably had quite a lot to do with the Crossair HS146 accident. There was a lot more to it than that, of course but it was probably a big contributing factor.
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Hi Cloudy et-al
ILS 28 is still an issue; however being postponed due to several problems with terrain profile and reflection surfaces of nearby surrounding buildings distorting the ILS signal.
While the bugs of ILS 28 are being worked on, an ILS 34 is being implemented. There as well, the buildings in the vicinity are a bit of a hassle such as the SRT hangar 3 which does not agree with Annex 14 areas and the Zurich Berg in turn goes not agree with Pans-ops areas.
However, it seems as though its all pretty good negotiated now and is awaiting the governments OK.
Another reason for preferring 34 over 28 at this point is the LDA. With a new THR at Romeo/Echo 8 where a bit more than 3200m will be available.
Once we got the ILS 34 done, ILS 28 will be tackled.
p.s.
How ‘bout a beer at the Hecht?
ILS 28 is still an issue; however being postponed due to several problems with terrain profile and reflection surfaces of nearby surrounding buildings distorting the ILS signal.
While the bugs of ILS 28 are being worked on, an ILS 34 is being implemented. There as well, the buildings in the vicinity are a bit of a hassle such as the SRT hangar 3 which does not agree with Annex 14 areas and the Zurich Berg in turn goes not agree with Pans-ops areas.
However, it seems as though its all pretty good negotiated now and is awaiting the governments OK.
Another reason for preferring 34 over 28 at this point is the LDA. With a new THR at Romeo/Echo 8 where a bit more than 3200m will be available.
Once we got the ILS 34 done, ILS 28 will be tackled.
p.s.
How ‘bout a beer at the Hecht?
Has any one submitted an Air Safety Report or Occurrence report? Has an operator complained to his national authority? Have the reports been copied to the Swiss (FOCA) and German (LBA) authorities? Have all interested parties told the JAA and Eurocontrol? Written to CHIRP?
This is our industry, our safety record; thus unless we do something about it nothing will change. We must not have another CFIT; the accident at LSZH (runway 28) on 24 Nov 2001 was appalling and the circumstances leading to it may well have included issues as above. It is up to us to initiate the changes.
This is our industry, our safety record; thus unless we do something about it nothing will change. We must not have another CFIT; the accident at LSZH (runway 28) on 24 Nov 2001 was appalling and the circumstances leading to it may well have included issues as above. It is up to us to initiate the changes.