No Joy in Zurich
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No Joy in Zurich
Maybe it's just me, but I fly into Zurich quite a lot, and the place really is poor. The arrival from BLM is guaranteed to get you high every time, especially with a strong wind where you need speedbrakes from FL240 to about 4000 feet, you always hold at Ekrit while they let the Swiss aircraft in ahead of you; and in the evenings they use the VOR/DME to Runway 28 and slow you back to 180 knots at 50 miles, even when it seems not too busy. Your landing clearance comes at the last minute while they scuttle several Swiss aircraft across the runway, but we always have to wait while we wish to cross.If you are lucky enough to get the ILS, they drop you onto it at the last second. Although you are not allowed over Southern Germany to land on 14 or 16, it seems they don't mind you taking off on Runway 32 or 34, thereby creating a lot more noise. Then, when finally on the ground, very nonstandard phraseology like we got yesterday. You would have thought they would be trying to do it even safer bearing in mind their recent history, but I think the ATC there is just poor. Anyone else got any opinions?
Back in the Dan Air days, Zurich was still well renowned for delays. On the early morning flight out of Gatwick it was expected that you would go into the hold above FL 200. So the crews used to save their breakfasts for 'the Zurich hold' to give them something exciting(?) to do!!!
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Have to agree. Out of all the European destinations, ZRH takes the biscuit. With even tighter recent restrictions on traffic approaching over Germany it's not getting any better.
The requirement to perform a fairly high workload non precision approach onto (about) 2500m before and after certain times of day is rare for a large international airport. It may have been contributory to the hull loss they suffered there a while back.
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Shaker One
The requirement to perform a fairly high workload non precision approach onto (about) 2500m before and after certain times of day is rare for a large international airport. It may have been contributory to the hull loss they suffered there a while back.
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Shaker One
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Colonel Klink
You wont belive the restrictions there are on the ATCs at ZRH!!
I think your frustrations are to be expected, but its definately not ATCs fault.
If you're inbound via BLM, the french leave you guys high and transfer the tfc to us at a very late stage. So you tend to end up very high, needing to reduce the speed and like you say, join the hold at EKRIT quite often. I can assure you that nobody here gives swiss any preferential treatment. They hate swiss too much for that!!
TFC joing Ekrit hold is inbound from three different directions, so it might seem that aicraft are sneaking in ahead of you when they're from the south or south west. And obviously there are many swiss aircraft(for now still) as this is their home base...! And one swiss aircraft looks like another, so it would be easy to mistake the one who entered the hold after you with the one, or three that leave the hold ahead of you!
The controllers have no space and therefore have to reduce TFC from way out. Have you ever looked at the map and seen how small Switzerland is? Then there is the absurd procedure of using runway 28 from 9pm in the week and from 8pm on weekends. It makes it very difficult for us. The departures from RWY 34 and 32 dont fly into Germany, but have to depart from these runways to save the poor people who live on the other side and who had to endure noise the entire day. Shame. If the guys in the twr let somebody land even one minute after the cut-off time on RWY 16/14, the DCA can fine us by SFR20000. So nobodys taking any chances.
They also need bigger spacing on final for RWY 28 as there are no hi-speed turn-offs.
As to phraseology on the ground: thats the apron office, who are not ATC and who have no ATC training. Its a specialty of ZRH which I've never seen elsewhere.
Happy landings
I think your frustrations are to be expected, but its definately not ATCs fault.
If you're inbound via BLM, the french leave you guys high and transfer the tfc to us at a very late stage. So you tend to end up very high, needing to reduce the speed and like you say, join the hold at EKRIT quite often. I can assure you that nobody here gives swiss any preferential treatment. They hate swiss too much for that!!
TFC joing Ekrit hold is inbound from three different directions, so it might seem that aicraft are sneaking in ahead of you when they're from the south or south west. And obviously there are many swiss aircraft(for now still) as this is their home base...! And one swiss aircraft looks like another, so it would be easy to mistake the one who entered the hold after you with the one, or three that leave the hold ahead of you!
The controllers have no space and therefore have to reduce TFC from way out. Have you ever looked at the map and seen how small Switzerland is? Then there is the absurd procedure of using runway 28 from 9pm in the week and from 8pm on weekends. It makes it very difficult for us. The departures from RWY 34 and 32 dont fly into Germany, but have to depart from these runways to save the poor people who live on the other side and who had to endure noise the entire day. Shame. If the guys in the twr let somebody land even one minute after the cut-off time on RWY 16/14, the DCA can fine us by SFR20000. So nobodys taking any chances.
They also need bigger spacing on final for RWY 28 as there are no hi-speed turn-offs.
As to phraseology on the ground: thats the apron office, who are not ATC and who have no ATC training. Its a specialty of ZRH which I've never seen elsewhere.
Happy landings
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ZRH, I appreciate your comments, and, yes, I can see how the geography and surrounding countries makes it difficult for the controllers there. It's unfortunate that the pilots feel the same way! The nighttime practice is absurd of using Runway 28. It's a pity to have a gripe because flying in Switzerland is amongst the most scenic anywhere in the world.
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I love it when I read this sort of stuff. What are you all trying to say? Are the adopted procedures at ZRH a danger to the safe operation of your aircraft? Are the adopted procedures at ZRH wasting time and money, both yours and theirs? - Are the adopted procedures at ZRH too difficult for you to competently manipulate your MCP/control column and thrust levers? (caused by lack of awareness/capacity/ability/poor training) - I could go on, but I wont because I can't wait to read the replies.
If ZRH is your bogey port, as opposed to the one on your fizzog, then whinge officially rather than on pprune - or maybe you have already. Let us know. Is anything being done to improve matters? By the way, I've never eaten Toblerone.
Finally, I know it's Saturday night and I must be saddo to be online right now, but I've got an early report tomorrow so I'm staying clean and sharp - until you lot blunt me off.
Finally, Finally, KrisKross, back in Dan Air days they used to fly Comets and some folk apparently used to get off on the leather upholstery in the flight deck - got any more nuggets from the good old days?
If ZRH is your bogey port, as opposed to the one on your fizzog, then whinge officially rather than on pprune - or maybe you have already. Let us know. Is anything being done to improve matters? By the way, I've never eaten Toblerone.
Finally, I know it's Saturday night and I must be saddo to be online right now, but I've got an early report tomorrow so I'm staying clean and sharp - until you lot blunt me off.
Finally, Finally, KrisKross, back in Dan Air days they used to fly Comets and some folk apparently used to get off on the leather upholstery in the flight deck - got any more nuggets from the good old days?
Last edited by nurjio; 18th May 2003 at 04:37.
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Nurjio, you are a little plonker!!! I am not TRYING to say anything, only commenting on the procedures at an airport I use frequently. I hardly think it's too hard, and before your nasty little mouth opens again to me, or my colleague KrissKross, you may be as well to remember our qualifications and experience probably far outweigh yours. Now get lost.
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Please Sir, don't get mad at me, just answer the question. I am not being nasty - it's always difficult to get the tone right in these posts, isn't it? Accept my apology if I offended you. However, looking at the rest of the posts there seems to be some genuine concerns, borne out of your well informed comments, about procedures at ZRH. I just need to know if anyone has addressed these issues officially. You never know, I might have to divert there one day on my Flight Sim.
One last thing Sir, I'm always careful when I use the word 'probably'; indeed, Carlsberg use it to avoid litigation.
I can see it now 'Colonel Klink, probably the best pilot in the world'.
Love Ya XXX
NURJ
One last thing Sir, I'm always careful when I use the word 'probably'; indeed, Carlsberg use it to avoid litigation.
I can see it now 'Colonel Klink, probably the best pilot in the world'.
Love Ya XXX
NURJ
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Fish....out of water.
It's official. I've just read all about it in today's paper. Fish feel pain when hooked....but who cares, I love a nice piece of haddock....(I know, I know, haddock is caught in trawler nets)....ooh I'm being immature again.
It's official. I've just read all about it in today's paper. Fish feel pain when hooked....but who cares, I love a nice piece of haddock....(I know, I know, haddock is caught in trawler nets)....ooh I'm being immature again.
Last edited by nurjio; 18th May 2003 at 06:12.
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We live 3 miles off the extended centre-line from the R16 departure and I work at the airport, so I have a fair idea of the situation.
Couldn't agree more about R28 after 2100hrs CET, it's ridiculous.
I commented ages ago on a similar thread that 1 hour extension for R14 arrivals and R16 departures would dramatically improve the holding situation in the evenings.
I really doubt there's bias in favour of swiss: my longest hold inbound to ZRH was 30 minutes and that was on swiss. I've heard the odd BA pilot commenting on the PA as they arrive on the last departure from LHR "oh, we have to go in the hold here, that's a first for me/unusual here/a surprise". I wish it was unusual, it's normal anytime after 2100CET any night of the week.
On a positive note, I understand that the German action to limit overflights that causes the "R28 rule" is being challenged as illegal in the courts, though God knows which courts as Switzerland ain't in the EU.
To me, what is criminal is that a Crossair RJ crashed in 2001 making a VOR approach in tricky weather conditions whilst a perfectly servicable ILS was available for R14. And that's "noise abatement" is it? Thank you NIMBY German farmers. All ten of you.
Couldn't agree more about R28 after 2100hrs CET, it's ridiculous.
I commented ages ago on a similar thread that 1 hour extension for R14 arrivals and R16 departures would dramatically improve the holding situation in the evenings.
I really doubt there's bias in favour of swiss: my longest hold inbound to ZRH was 30 minutes and that was on swiss. I've heard the odd BA pilot commenting on the PA as they arrive on the last departure from LHR "oh, we have to go in the hold here, that's a first for me/unusual here/a surprise". I wish it was unusual, it's normal anytime after 2100CET any night of the week.
On a positive note, I understand that the German action to limit overflights that causes the "R28 rule" is being challenged as illegal in the courts, though God knows which courts as Switzerland ain't in the EU.
To me, what is criminal is that a Crossair RJ crashed in 2001 making a VOR approach in tricky weather conditions whilst a perfectly servicable ILS was available for R14. And that's "noise abatement" is it? Thank you NIMBY German farmers. All ten of you.
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ZRH is my home base. I understand, that it is somewhat difficult to understand the german regulation of overflight restrictions, and I do honestly think that the noise for landing over german territory is not so substantial (compared with the T/O's).
Regarding the CDA VOR DME 28: It's a great approach to fly!! We have to toss coins each time about who is allowed to do it. Demanding, keeping your brains sharp, just rising the color of your cheeks to a more intense blush... Hey, wasn't this why we all got into aviation?
Don't get me wrong, I do not think that there are no mistakes possible in contrary. And about ZRH in general: We always take 30' extra if our approach time is after 21.00 LT. The regualtion to use only one RWY for T/O and LDG was stupid enough, but now with the 28! And for my part I don't mind to go slow on 28, being fully configured at OSDAN, leaves you time enough for overview.
Cheers
Av
Regarding the CDA VOR DME 28: It's a great approach to fly!! We have to toss coins each time about who is allowed to do it. Demanding, keeping your brains sharp, just rising the color of your cheeks to a more intense blush... Hey, wasn't this why we all got into aviation?
Don't get me wrong, I do not think that there are no mistakes possible in contrary. And about ZRH in general: We always take 30' extra if our approach time is after 21.00 LT. The regualtion to use only one RWY for T/O and LDG was stupid enough, but now with the 28! And for my part I don't mind to go slow on 28, being fully configured at OSDAN, leaves you time enough for overview.
Cheers
Av
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ATC Zurich
hi,
have to agree that the situation in LSZH is not really good, but it's not (only?) fault of the atc. in fact, the restrictions from germany cause a lot of delay. it's ridiculous to force the big planes on rwy 28, when you have longer ones with ils available. bus as often, politics goes into airport operations, and politicians usually don't knnw much about how to fly from a to b.
unique has made a nice suggestion in case of wet rwy28, but no allowance to use rwy14 due wx mnm. they now propose to make a VOR/DME on 28, and then a VISUAL CIRCLING to 14 or 32. does anyone remember, when on 28aug1998 the cargolux B747 almost smacked into the ground when trying exactly to do this (there was a big party at the airport; they used 28 for landing, 32 for departures and 16 was closed due aircraft exhibition. so, acft requiring a loger runway hat to do the vor28 and "swing" to 32. that was when the 747 misjudged the approach)
what's next? waiting for the good next idea from this madhouse.
everyone knows how to solve the problem from ATC point of view: ILS 32 for arr, dep on 34. so, no crossing of active runways for acft departing or arriving, precision approaches, no overflight of germany and easy and efficient ATC.
but try to sell this solution to the people living under the approach of the new ILS 32
and for swiss/atc: as swiss has cancelled the ID50/90 for atc, there is no premium treatment for them, believe me....
cheers,
al
have to agree that the situation in LSZH is not really good, but it's not (only?) fault of the atc. in fact, the restrictions from germany cause a lot of delay. it's ridiculous to force the big planes on rwy 28, when you have longer ones with ils available. bus as often, politics goes into airport operations, and politicians usually don't knnw much about how to fly from a to b.
unique has made a nice suggestion in case of wet rwy28, but no allowance to use rwy14 due wx mnm. they now propose to make a VOR/DME on 28, and then a VISUAL CIRCLING to 14 or 32. does anyone remember, when on 28aug1998 the cargolux B747 almost smacked into the ground when trying exactly to do this (there was a big party at the airport; they used 28 for landing, 32 for departures and 16 was closed due aircraft exhibition. so, acft requiring a loger runway hat to do the vor28 and "swing" to 32. that was when the 747 misjudged the approach)
what's next? waiting for the good next idea from this madhouse.
everyone knows how to solve the problem from ATC point of view: ILS 32 for arr, dep on 34. so, no crossing of active runways for acft departing or arriving, precision approaches, no overflight of germany and easy and efficient ATC.
but try to sell this solution to the people living under the approach of the new ILS 32
and for swiss/atc: as swiss has cancelled the ID50/90 for atc, there is no premium treatment for them, believe me....
cheers,
al
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Have flown into ZRH since 1977, and have to say the ATC services there were (in the past) some of the best in Europe.
Now, holding seems to be quite usual, not unlike LHR, for example....
Now, holding seems to be quite usual, not unlike LHR, for example....
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Agree with most of the original posting bar the fact that I don't think SWISS get preferential treatment unlike lets say Spain where IBERIA certainly get priority sometimes to the cost of safety...
The SWISS pilots regularly get lenghty slots from delivery just like everyone else...God I hate the place!!
The SWISS pilots regularly get lenghty slots from delivery just like everyone else...God I hate the place!!
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Springbok449, couldn't agree with you more as reagrds favoritism of Iberia in Spain, but that is a whole thread by itself.......................!
Regards,
The Colonel.
Regards,
The Colonel.
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Thanks for your confidence, ADFS, but ZRH has kindly explained the reasons for many of my grievances when flying to Zurich, and I have to admit, I understand things a little better and will try to be a bit more tolerant in the future. But, there is NOTHING that can possibly make me feel better when flying into Spain and seeing the controllers laughing at us while they all to pleasantly slide a few more Iberias in front of us.....!
I wouldn't mind if they did it in English so you could understand them, so I'll have to get a Spanish phrasebook.....................!!!!
I wouldn't mind if they did it in English so you could understand them, so I'll have to get a Spanish phrasebook.....................!!!!
I am a figment of my own imagination
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My maintainance base has been Zurich for the last eighteen years so go in fairly regularly. Have had to hold very few times though often going in in poor weather, possibly a little more these days. Could not say that I thought the controlling any worse than Bruxelles Paris or Rome. We are a foreign reg so cannot say that we get favourable treatment . Cannot say that our initial approaches have been particularly steep from any direction as we quite often come from Milan Paris or London. In fact I have always felt the controlling to be reasonably good and probably better than Nice and Marseilles