Free First Officers

[Send Clowns]

Cat Driver, I recommend you read my previous posts. I made it quite clear that my choice when I finished the course and there were no jobs available was to work elsewhere. I have merely been pointing out here that working for free in "apprenticeship" or internship is not just acceptible but perfectly normal practice in many industries, and even in parts of the aviation industry, and that from their point of view these people are not working for free.. .. .For years people have taken sponsorship with a 2-year lock in to instruct as part of the deal. With the pay of instructors I find that a worse deal for the individual, butI have never seen it criticised. What I see a the basis of the criticism is not concern for the dignity of the individuals concerned, but professional pilots worried about the effect on their jobs.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 13:30: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]</small>

[Chuck Ellsworth]

S.C. :. .. .You are not alone in the problem of getting started in aviation.. .. .It is not only your generation that had to face this problem.. .. .It does seem to me however that your generation has the missguided belief that everything should be easy and unless they get instant gratification they sulk, moan and demand their right to whatever they wish at the moment.. .. .Working for no pay is detremental to everyone, except the company that is getting voluntary slave labour.. .. .I would bet the bank that if and when you get to a good paying job in the industry you would be the first screaming about how unfair it is for newcomers to drive down your industry.. .. .End of conversation for me Send Clowns.. .. .................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Ginger Tom]

I've got to back Hug Monster up on this one. He and I both worked for a company that had First Officers for whom the company was paid. The company eventually ceased operating; so if they had staff working for less than nothing, and still couldn't show a profit, what was wrong?. .. .In addition, prior to ceasing trading, they were closing bases, and making people redundant (yes, the ones they had to pay were sacked!), and the working for less than nothing F/Os were still there when I was made redundant, nearly a year before the company's demise. Hence, my attitude towards the concept of people working for nothing is somewhat coloured by personal experience.

[-273]

Nice to see that someone has to bring a person's generation into the argument. I think all older generations think that the ones after them have it easy, or that the younger generation has no respect. . .. .Kind of sad really that such broad sweeping accusations are made on a group of people based on their age.. .. .It is a pity really.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 22:08: Message edited by: -273 ]</small>

[HugMonster]

273, I assume you are being ironic in making the same generalisations?. .. .What is sad, but true, is that aviation has never been easy to get into.. .. .Yes, everyone would like to collect their brand, shiny new licence from Gatwick and walk straight into a well-paying job on a 737 (or better).. .. .The simple truth is that only a very small minority ever do. The vast majority graft, starting at the bottom and work their way up. I got my PPL in late '87. I proceeded in very short order to get the IMC, Multi and night ratings, then went to the USA to build hours, came back and did a BCPL, with just 200 hours in my logbook. My first commercial job was traffic-spotting in a PA28 for a local radio station. 2 hours morning and evening, and in the middle I instructed.. .. .I was made redundant. I worked backstage for a while in a West End Theatre, then got a job RHS of a Bandit.. .. .Made redundant again. (Gulf War). Went out to the Caribbean, spending (on and off) two and a half years out there, island-hopping in BN2's. Sounds idyllic, but many times doing in excess of 15 sectors in a day. One occasion was 23 sectors. The company record was 26. I worked damn hard.. .. .Made redundant again. Returned to the UK, got a ground job in Operations, and left, buying a 757 type rating.. .. .Aparrt from that 6-month stint in a Bandit, it was nine years before I got back into a gas turbine-powered aircraft again.. .. .Worked my way back up again, doing some Police flying and other bits and pieces, got a job on a Jetstream. Moved to the LHS. Went to ATR's as a direct-entry captain.. .. .Company put into liquidation in the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Redundant again.. .. .Not a blissfully happy tale, is it? I'm not asking for sympathy. Along the way I learned a lot, and had lots of fun.. .. .So perhaps some people think that the only way they can make their applications to airlines seem attractive is to offer their services for free. In doing so, they climb over everyone else in the industry. They may call it initiative. I call it something else.. .. .To anyone who gets a BA sponsorship, or PPRuNe/Astraeus sponsorship or any other similar scheme that has the aim of giving pilots their start in the industry, I say good luck. Such sponsorship schemes are legitimate ways to train pilots.. .. .What is not legitimate is to charge pilots to sit in an aircraft, merely because "market forces" happen to sit that way at present, give them nothing but hours in the logbook, then boot them out.. .. .Nor is it legitimate for pilots to attempt to cut the legs off their colleagues by gazumping their jobs from under them, to attempt to steal jobs from more experienced candidates. Nor is it acceptable for any airline to confuse itself about who pays for an aircraft to fly, and whether or not pilots pay them, or vice versa.. .. .If an airline cannot afford to pay all their pilots the going rate, as part of their operating costs, then they have no business being in the industry.. .. .The industry is at a low at present. It is stating to recover, and pilots will be in demand again. Such unscrupulous employers as I have mentioned above should, possibly be removed from the industry now. Don't encourage them to hang around. Stick to the honest, safe, decent, humane employers and encourage them in what they're doing instead.. .. .And to everyone out there trying to get a foot in the door, good luck. It's not easy - that's something that all pilots, of whatever generation know. But stick at it, don't throw away your standards and the prospects of your colleagues by so damaging the employment market because it's more difficult than normal right now. It will improve.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

-273 :. .. .Yeh, I guess I was a little to broad with my statement, what I should have said is I have noticed that the generation just starting in the flying industry seem to have a larger number of individuals who want it now and without getting their hands dirty so to speak. ( Might be the liberal mindset that seems to have become entrenched in a large segment of our society?? ). .. .So I will give you that much, I don't want to appear to be to biased toward the newcommers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .However to much sensitivity on your part will not make it any easier to cope with some of the realities you may face if and when you expand your flying horizons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Back to the subject::. .. .Voluntary slavery is wrong.. .. ............... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Send Clowns]

Cat, you're still reading things into my posts that I did not write, nor I think did anyone. No-one suggested we should have things easy, in fact I think feeling they have to work for no remuneration is fairly hard. Don't attack me - I'm not the one working for free, my services come in at £25 per hour if you want to learn anything. I am currently a self-employed tutor, not a working pilot.. .. .Restating your position without supporting argument and stating that the converation is over does not constitute a successful defence of your position.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K Send Clowns:. .. .I have reread all your comments and you in fact do not work for nothing in aviation.. .. .However it appears to me that you consider flying for free to be sort of an apprentiship and you seem to support such a situation.. .. .So in the grand scheme of things I guess we all have our opinions, I retract my statements regarding you.. .. .Now you go have a good day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Cat

[Chuck Ellsworth]

. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 04:31: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]</small>

[Flyingspaniard]

SC - I don't think that you can compare pilots working for free with the apprenticeships you talk about.. .. .An apprenticeship implies that the apprentice doesn't know the job and will be trained by his boss/mentor. Us new pilots have already trained, and got the qualification so although we will be gaining experience it isn't as though we are learning a new trade.. .. .I have to agree with you HM in that we all have a collective responsibility to maintain the value of our profession, otherwise in the long term we can only expect our wages to drop.. .. .I have no commitments in the way of family, mortgage etc so working for nothing is something that I could do, however it doesn't mean that I should. I fully expect that one day I will be in the RHS of a jet, but I am not going to prostitute myself to get there. There are pilots out there who have built a life around the salary they have come to depend on. I can survive on instructor wages, whereas they can't.. .. .I know all wannabes are desperate to fly, but it really will be better for everybody if they get a part time job to supplement an instructor wage or a full time job that affords them enough to hour build or get that type rating. Whatever they want, but just don't work for free. It will hurt us all in the long run. Be patient and weather the storm. When it blows over, there will be a demand for us again.. .. .PS and that goes for whoever it is advertising their free services in Flight International this week as well. You must have more money than sense!. .. .And that all I have to say about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dockjock]

Why are those companies getting commercial pilots to ride along anyway. They're not getting paid, and they obviously don't require someone with any training (otherwise the job would have value and a paycheque) so why not just get some 45 hr private pilot to sit there and throw the baggage. . .. .Actually, why not get someone with 10 hrs MS flight sim in type to pay to sit there? The ultimate video game!! You guys are embarrassing.. .. .The absolutely saddest, most pathetic aspect of the people and companies that run these schemes is that they are the ones that go out of business due to lack of funds. Hey, why not get the captains to pay to fly as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[AMEX]

Flight International this week:. .737 Pilot Available, recently licenced, New Group 1 rating on type, Canadian and US commercial Licenced, WILL WORK FOR FREE ON 737 to build experience,.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .Sorry Send Clown but this guy has already stolen your job and I hope this advert will be percieved the way it should be. Disgusting it is! To the guy who advertised, perhaps you should have thought about securing a job before investing (spending) that kind of money for a type rating. Sure if you have 5 hours on type you will be able to compete against the much more experienced and professional guys that are currently available on the market,...Not!!. .Quote:. ."For years people have taken sponsorship with a 2-year lock in to instruct as part of the deal. With the pay of instructors I find that a worse deal for the individual, butI have never seen it criticised.". .Again Send Clwon we seem to be be on a different planet. How do you do manage to see that an honest hard working, keen, flight instructor (albeit with a low salary)can be compared to someone who pays for his "employment". Yep they have it tough but it certainly shows a fair amount of commitment and determination. On top of that you seem to insinuate that this guys/girls are dergrading themselves in exercing such profession. They are not! and thanks to them, today you have learnt to fly !!!. .As for the comment about CD's reference to generations, well what can I say ?. .I am 30 and do agree with him, although I suspect there is a few years between us, people tend to go for the "quick fix" solution but I am sorry, that's not how you show how dedicated you can be. I guess I must be old fashioned but I do have a certain idea about aviation and so far I have managed to get by like that.... . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 05:03: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>

[Bigmouth]

Iz, how about posting a copy of that FAA approved manual so we can see for ourselves. What type of aircraft was it? This sounds very fishy...

[Stealth]

Well, I think that there is no difference between pilots who work for free flying a C182 in the bush, or working for next to nothing while instructing or flying a jet for free. No difference AT ALL. They are all being abused. So, would the pilot who advertised in the Flight International appear to have morals had he offered to work for food and a place to live? Therefore, cut the crap. This world is not a fair place and the only solution is to do a total overhaul of the economy and the way it operates with some basic laws enacted to protect the rights of professionals. Only the BEST pilots should get the jobs.

[Iz]

Bigmouth, yeah sorry it's been a few years, don't keep all the manuals but if you choose not to believe me, that is truly not something I'm going to lose sleep over.. .. .Question. Why is the same job that other people get paid for, suddenly SLAVERY if you don't get paid for it?. .. .Regarding the "young people don't know what they're doing" issue.. Virtually all pilots I fly with at my airline have had a relatively easier (certainly financially) path to flying a big jet. Flight training paid for by the state. Ex-Air Force people. It's incredibly hard nowadays, the aviation training world is not the same it was 10 years ago, at least not in Europe.. .. .The company I flew a batch of hours for is still in existence and doing very well, last flying 150 planes when I checked. . .. .Some seem to think it's just the easy way to buy your way up. Nothing was easy about it. Loading and unloading freight in the blazing desert sun is not easy (still not slavery, the paid captains do the same and I enjoyed it). It was a lot less easy than the airline jobs.. .. .Climbing over the backs of others and stealing other people's jobs is just not applicable.. .. .And please get off your moral highgrounds saying that you're a bad person if you enter one of these programs. If everyone who breaks the speed limit when the cops aren't around had to be banned from this site, there'd be 20 members left.. .So please stop being so hypocritical. Those who have the good jobs, be happy for yourselves, those who are still looking, good luck. If you truly want it, you'll get it.. .. .Let me state that a pilot's capacities have NOTHING to do with whether they enrolled in such a program or not. Many people here imply that if you do that, you're a second rate pilot. . .. .Okay, I've got my egg-shield up, let the criticism flow again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Dockjock]

The ends MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT justify the means. You are a scumbag.

[Slim20]

I think some of you may be making a dodgy assumption that anyone participating in a "fly for free" scheme (usually never the case - money has to change hands somewhere) is a "bad pilot". In the current marketplace there are going to be dozens of "good" pilots looking for work. It doesn't justify the practice of companies booting out good operators on the basis of hiring cheap labour, but so far none of the objectors has come up with an example of this. . .. .By all means rail as much as you like at the injustices of a fickle industry, but don't just write people off as crap pilots for desperately selling themselves short just to get a foot in the door.

[Jabewar]

TF, I dont't think anyone is writing people off as 'crap pilots'. It is a question of ethical/moral standards. Maybe they are considered 'crap people'.. .. .Flying for free is wrong. Plain and simple. Most of these people would tell a potential employer outside aviation to get stuffed if offered the same type of scheme. So why change one's standards because one 'loves to fly'?. .. .Apprentices (at least in Canada) get paid. So the comparison is invalid. It even adds to the argument against flying for free. A transport category aircraft requires 2 qualified pilots. One is not becoming qualified while sitting in the seat. This isn't to say one is not learning. That is where pay differential for experience/years of service etc come into play.. .. .If we as a group do not stand up for ourselves, who will? We cannot expect legislation to be put in place. We are the problem! We must demand a level of respect and worth if we are to expect it! If not, it is indeed a sad statement of our "profession". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[skysheriff]

the real culprits are those flight schools/Jar ftos (like the ones advertising on this site) who make all those wannabes believe there are jobs waiting for them at the end of their training.. .This is much less applicable to the FAA system.. .It makes me sick of seeing the wannabes on the forum still fetching close to 50k (uk) for basically a dead-end.. .Once there is a glut of low-time pilots , the market forces take a upper hand. There are few commuter/taxi operators in Europe so those guys have nowhere to go.

[Iz]

Well well, it seems some people don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion. If you think I'm a scumbag based upon the fact that I flew cargo for free on a turboprop, that's your opinion and I shrug that off with ease. . .. .Saying that flying for free to gain valuable experience (which it still is -- I did it for the experience, not merely the hours I could write down in my logbook) being wrong, that's another opinion. I'm not personally threatening you or anyone so leave your emotional rants at the door please.. .. .Once again, don't give me that hypocritical "crap person" due to morals. If the only moral failure in my life is to fly for free, then I should be lucky (I don't think it's immoral). So how about the people that break the speed limit, cheat on their spouses, drink and drive (or fly), are racist or worse? Sanctimonious BS.. .. .Brings me to another point (food for a whole other topic):. .. .Would you rather have a 185-hour pilot fly the right seat of a Boeing 737 or A320, paid, flying pax, or should that be someone with actual experience, say 1500+ hours? Bearing in mind that straight outta school = zero experience, only training.