TF, I dont't think anyone is writing people off as 'crap pilots'. It is a question of ethical/moral standards. Maybe they are considered 'crap people'.. .. .Flying for free is wrong. Plain and simple. Most of these people would tell a potential employer outside aviation to get stuffed if offered the same type of scheme. So why change one's standards because one 'loves to fly'?. .. .Apprentices (at least in Canada) get paid. So the comparison is invalid. It even adds to the argument against flying for free. A transport category aircraft requires 2 qualified pilots. One is not becoming qualified while sitting in the seat. This isn't to say one is not learning. That is where pay differential for experience/years of service etc come into play.. .. .If we as a group do not stand up for ourselves, who will? We cannot expect legislation to be put in place. We are the problem! We must demand a level of respect and worth if we are to expect it! If not, it is indeed a sad statement of our "profession". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />