easyjet pilots to strike??
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desafinado
My argument was that you quoted TOO MUCH work, TOO MANY sectors, NOT ENOUGH money and TERRIBLE crew meals.
Those are quite clearly NOT the issues here, hence my comment about your understanding of the problem.
We would happily work more hours/sectors for a market rate pay rise IF and ONLY IF it is better organised (rostered), not chopped and changed around so much whilst retaining crew food (the standard is acceptable - just like any airline food!).
This hightlights one of the major difficulties in industrial relations - LISTEN TO WHAT WE ARE ACTUALLY SAYING, NOT WHAT YOU EXPECT US TO SAY.
My argument was that you quoted TOO MUCH work, TOO MANY sectors, NOT ENOUGH money and TERRIBLE crew meals.
Those are quite clearly NOT the issues here, hence my comment about your understanding of the problem.
We would happily work more hours/sectors for a market rate pay rise IF and ONLY IF it is better organised (rostered), not chopped and changed around so much whilst retaining crew food (the standard is acceptable - just like any airline food!).
This hightlights one of the major difficulties in industrial relations - LISTEN TO WHAT WE ARE ACTUALLY SAYING, NOT WHAT YOU EXPECT US TO SAY.
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Totally agree with you flaps one. Last week, rostered to do 7 days on with 2 off. How many days were changed? SIX!!!!!!Minimum rest on three accounts. My rosters for the last couple of months have been stable at being unstable. Two months ago, I asked the rostering dept not give me a roster as there was clearly no point whatsoever as every day, except my days off were always changed. I think something needs to be done and if it is a strike, we should definately do it and not be put off by the management. If they were subject to our working hours etc, they would undoubtably be long gone! Actually, they probably wouldn't be! They'd wait for their 1/40 share of 10 mill and then foxtrot oscar!!!!Lets see what happens!
A lot of large company managers work on the principal of getting first hand experience of how their pilots are treated and rostered etc, by flying with them on the line for a number of weeks. Maybe the managers at Easy should be given the same rosters, which reflect the average pilot's month. They might find that family life might be a bit different.
I'm not bitter or twisted, but they really are taking the pi**
I think that everyone who reads this thread and works for EZY, should express whether or not a strike would be a good thing and whether they would ACTUALLY do it!!
A lot of large company managers work on the principal of getting first hand experience of how their pilots are treated and rostered etc, by flying with them on the line for a number of weeks. Maybe the managers at Easy should be given the same rosters, which reflect the average pilot's month. They might find that family life might be a bit different.
I'm not bitter or twisted, but they really are taking the pi**
I think that everyone who reads this thread and works for EZY, should express whether or not a strike would be a good thing and whether they would ACTUALLY do it!!
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I only did 1 (one) day that I was rostered to fly in December, then the changes began, but most of the time they gave me 10-12 hours notice before the change. Then one day I got more than min rest (40 minutes extra) between flights so I am happy, because it was not as bad as November.
As you can see it is getting better, maybe I will get 1 hour more than min rest between flights in January.
As you can see it is getting better, maybe I will get 1 hour more than min rest between flights in January.
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A couple of points that you guys in easyJet need to realise:
1. eJ charges next to nowt for a lot of its tickets. You lot are well paid. How do you think it does this? By working you to the limits of your max allowable duty hours. Simple economics.
2. All this talk of a strike is hot air. You have only 55% BALPA membership. That's 45% of your workforce that won't even be in a strike ballot, plus whatever %age wont join you on the picket line. If you disrupt half your services, your customers will go elsewhere and the airline will go down, you can then have all the minimum rest you want.
3. None of you are conscripts (to the best of my knowledge). If you think it's so bad, just leave. There are plenty more unemployed, experienced people who will do your job.
4. Face it, the honeymoon is over. When things start running out, the first thing is usually the goodwill of the troops. It's starting to look more and more like Air Europe Mark II.
1. eJ charges next to nowt for a lot of its tickets. You lot are well paid. How do you think it does this? By working you to the limits of your max allowable duty hours. Simple economics.
2. All this talk of a strike is hot air. You have only 55% BALPA membership. That's 45% of your workforce that won't even be in a strike ballot, plus whatever %age wont join you on the picket line. If you disrupt half your services, your customers will go elsewhere and the airline will go down, you can then have all the minimum rest you want.
3. None of you are conscripts (to the best of my knowledge). If you think it's so bad, just leave. There are plenty more unemployed, experienced people who will do your job.
4. Face it, the honeymoon is over. When things start running out, the first thing is usually the goodwill of the troops. It's starting to look more and more like Air Europe Mark II.
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Don't, What a load of bull.
If you had bothered to research this you would what the facts are.
1. This is not about money. The salaries that we are paid are reasonable.
Yes we are paid to fly a maximum of 900 hours a year. Divide our pay by 900 and you have an hourly rate. So what, that is basic maths.
At Go , by clever rostering we regularily reached up to 880+ hours, thus achieving good crew utilisation, However at Easy, I don't think anyone gets anywhere near that figure equaling bad utilisation and expensive pilots.
If the rosters are sorted, people can do the same, if not more hours in a shorter period and have more time off, as opposed to having it spread over the available working week.
This dispute is about putting pressure on the shambles known as our rostering department and changing their cavalier attitude to organising our lives and the readiness to change it. If they were organised and had a realistic working plan things would improve. It is because they are allowed to get away with it that they do. To organise it, just requires some organisation, but at present why bother since there is no pressure to do so. By organising an efficient roster and increasing crew utilisation doesn't increase the hourly rate cost. Hence our request for a rostering agreement.
The times of the flights don't change every day so what is the problem.
2. 55% of the workforce is enough to have a considerable impact on 100% of the company.
Hopefully the management wii realise this, before its precious shareholders sell any more shares, and Joe Public goes else where.
3. If there were any better jobs out there, many would.
4. Air Europe? Maybe. A question for you. How is EZ going to fund DBA or indeed the Bus's. Can hardly go to the City in its present state can it! Had better sort out the mess your'e in first boys, before we can sub you anymore money.
If you had bothered to research this you would what the facts are.
1. This is not about money. The salaries that we are paid are reasonable.
Yes we are paid to fly a maximum of 900 hours a year. Divide our pay by 900 and you have an hourly rate. So what, that is basic maths.
At Go , by clever rostering we regularily reached up to 880+ hours, thus achieving good crew utilisation, However at Easy, I don't think anyone gets anywhere near that figure equaling bad utilisation and expensive pilots.
If the rosters are sorted, people can do the same, if not more hours in a shorter period and have more time off, as opposed to having it spread over the available working week.
This dispute is about putting pressure on the shambles known as our rostering department and changing their cavalier attitude to organising our lives and the readiness to change it. If they were organised and had a realistic working plan things would improve. It is because they are allowed to get away with it that they do. To organise it, just requires some organisation, but at present why bother since there is no pressure to do so. By organising an efficient roster and increasing crew utilisation doesn't increase the hourly rate cost. Hence our request for a rostering agreement.
The times of the flights don't change every day so what is the problem.
2. 55% of the workforce is enough to have a considerable impact on 100% of the company.
Hopefully the management wii realise this, before its precious shareholders sell any more shares, and Joe Public goes else where.
3. If there were any better jobs out there, many would.
4. Air Europe? Maybe. A question for you. How is EZ going to fund DBA or indeed the Bus's. Can hardly go to the City in its present state can it! Had better sort out the mess your'e in first boys, before we can sub you anymore money.
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Two years ago eJ only had 200 pilots now they have 700 so about 500 are bonded therefore many of the pilots simply cannot leave.
Pay looks good on paper. I took a £20,000 pay increase to come to eJ but take home less than £100 p/m increase.
I know that that eJ looks good from the outside and the pilots are throwing there toys out the crib, but spend one day in the LTN crew room and you will start to see how bad it is. 7 airlines and I have never seen such an unhappy lot.
Believe it or not but the pilots are trying to save the airline! In 2 years time bonds are going to come to and end and the rate at which pilots leave will be so fast that eJ will not be able to replace them
Pay looks good on paper. I took a £20,000 pay increase to come to eJ but take home less than £100 p/m increase.
I know that that eJ looks good from the outside and the pilots are throwing there toys out the crib, but spend one day in the LTN crew room and you will start to see how bad it is. 7 airlines and I have never seen such an unhappy lot.
Believe it or not but the pilots are trying to save the airline! In 2 years time bonds are going to come to and end and the rate at which pilots leave will be so fast that eJ will not be able to replace them
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dontdoit
1. eJ charges next to nowt for a lot of its tickets. You lot are well paid. How do you think it does this? By working you to the limits of your max allowable duty hours. Simple economics.
Now read carefully, Ill try not to use words that are too big!
THEY DON'T ROSTER US TO THE MAXIMUM FLIGHT DUTY LIMITS AT ALL. THE AVERAGE PILOT FLEW 630 HRS LAST YEAR. WE CAN'T FLY ANY MORE HOURS BECAUSE THE 'ROSTER' GETS SCREWED AROUND SO MUCH AFTER IT IS WRITTEN THAT WE ARE USED VERY INNEFFICIENTLY - WASTING MONEY.
IF WE WERE BETTER ROSTERED, WE COULD FLY MORE, BE HAPPIER, BE MORE PRODUCTIVE, NOT BE MESSED AROUND SO MUCH AND CHARGE EVEN LESS FOR THE BL00DY TICKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The strike talk is not hot air. If the CEO fails to make some positive moves by 31 Jan the ballot papers will be in the post on 1 Feb.
If 55% of the pilots strike, as the vast majority of Balpa members are Captains, circa 70% of the flights won't go. A strike can be a few hours, a day, a few days - anything in fact that is considered to have the desired effect.
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I was a member of Balpa in a previous company. I left them after a badly handled redundancy deal catering only for the top 200 and swore that i would never return. I have just gone against all that i believe in and rejoined, realising that we need the solidarity and strength. I guess there is about 55.6 % membership now and rising.
Dont doit -- you sound like your full of c**p.
MF32.5
Dont doit -- you sound like your full of c**p.
MF32.5
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Having had three years with easyJet, let's give a synopsis - purely my view:
- The airline has been expanding like mad since its inception, meaning nothing is quite ready - crew room too small (again) - crewing out of their depth (again) - recruiting and training at white heat - procedures being revised piecemeal - parking overloaded etc. etc.
This happens in all startup airlines but usually catches up with the situation at some point. In easyJet it never did - lots of schemes and promises of how it was going to be and then more aircraft arrive and off it goes again. Nobody has time to look around and see what could be done better because they are all so busy just hanging in there trying to keep up.
Who suffers - well everyone, especially the crews. What easyJet desperately need to do is to call a halt and consolidate. Daily ops needs to be given time and priority - everyone needs catch his breath. Some listening needs to be done. When it's done then future plans can again be looked at - from a base of solid daily operation.
The pity of it is - it's a great basic idea - good, almost new fleet - good engineers - pilots at least as good as I have come across in bigger national carriers and a platform which could make a lot of money if tuned right. After sorting through the polemic on this thread what comes over loud and clear as the root problem? The rostering is so ineffective that the pilots are distracted to the point of weighing a strike. Blimey! For Pete's sake fix it then - can't the powers that be look down from their ambitious strategy for long enough to do a couple of simple tactical changes? Just realised I haven't mentioned the check-in personnel and dispatchers - well, it's the same story - willing but overloaded, most of them.
It is damn hard to make discontented people happy and get their trust back when you have lost it. Much easier to keep them content in the first place. This is the eleventh hour and a clear gesture (treating the pilots' input as a sensible basis for new rostering patterns would be a good start) is needed.
- The airline has been expanding like mad since its inception, meaning nothing is quite ready - crew room too small (again) - crewing out of their depth (again) - recruiting and training at white heat - procedures being revised piecemeal - parking overloaded etc. etc.
This happens in all startup airlines but usually catches up with the situation at some point. In easyJet it never did - lots of schemes and promises of how it was going to be and then more aircraft arrive and off it goes again. Nobody has time to look around and see what could be done better because they are all so busy just hanging in there trying to keep up.
Who suffers - well everyone, especially the crews. What easyJet desperately need to do is to call a halt and consolidate. Daily ops needs to be given time and priority - everyone needs catch his breath. Some listening needs to be done. When it's done then future plans can again be looked at - from a base of solid daily operation.
The pity of it is - it's a great basic idea - good, almost new fleet - good engineers - pilots at least as good as I have come across in bigger national carriers and a platform which could make a lot of money if tuned right. After sorting through the polemic on this thread what comes over loud and clear as the root problem? The rostering is so ineffective that the pilots are distracted to the point of weighing a strike. Blimey! For Pete's sake fix it then - can't the powers that be look down from their ambitious strategy for long enough to do a couple of simple tactical changes? Just realised I haven't mentioned the check-in personnel and dispatchers - well, it's the same story - willing but overloaded, most of them.
It is damn hard to make discontented people happy and get their trust back when you have lost it. Much easier to keep them content in the first place. This is the eleventh hour and a clear gesture (treating the pilots' input as a sensible basis for new rostering patterns would be a good start) is needed.
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Interesting post, Few Cloudy...
You hit the nail on the head with much of what you write, but does this mean, for example, that you and your colleagues regard the loss of crew food as a foregone conclusion?
Sorry, but I regard my employer's duty as extending to looking after me during long and difficult days at work, and good food and drink is the bare minimum. If my employer didn't do that, I would understand that they held me in such low regard that I really would not want to work for them any more, especially if the crew food were withdrawn in a manner which is supposed to put more money in the pilots' pockets, but in fact changes nothing about the company's outgoings and simple involves a tax fiddle.
Also, I have not and would not travel on an airline as a passenger if I knew the crew were not being fed. Effective functioning as a crew member relies upon many things, one of the most crucial is proper sustenance. Do you trust your most junior, deepest in debt, FO or cabin crew member to feed him/herself properly in difficult circumstances? Remember, with your FOs, it is often the desire to be just where he/she is that is the cause of the debt... Expert legal advice is with me on this one (European Law and the Duty of Care).
Remember, the Employer giveth and the Taxman taketh away, pretty much at his whim.
You hit the nail on the head with much of what you write, but does this mean, for example, that you and your colleagues regard the loss of crew food as a foregone conclusion?
Sorry, but I regard my employer's duty as extending to looking after me during long and difficult days at work, and good food and drink is the bare minimum. If my employer didn't do that, I would understand that they held me in such low regard that I really would not want to work for them any more, especially if the crew food were withdrawn in a manner which is supposed to put more money in the pilots' pockets, but in fact changes nothing about the company's outgoings and simple involves a tax fiddle.
Also, I have not and would not travel on an airline as a passenger if I knew the crew were not being fed. Effective functioning as a crew member relies upon many things, one of the most crucial is proper sustenance. Do you trust your most junior, deepest in debt, FO or cabin crew member to feed him/herself properly in difficult circumstances? Remember, with your FOs, it is often the desire to be just where he/she is that is the cause of the debt... Expert legal advice is with me on this one (European Law and the Duty of Care).
Remember, the Employer giveth and the Taxman taketh away, pretty much at his whim.
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It would be interesting to know what the current Union membership percentage is. 55% must be well exceeded by now.
From what Ive seen (as said above) there have been an awful lot of anti-balpa types swallowing their pride to send the management a message!
If it does come to strike, I would be surprised if the company could operate 20% of its schedule. Crewing would probably give some non-strikers the day off!
From what Ive seen (as said above) there have been an awful lot of anti-balpa types swallowing their pride to send the management a message!
If it does come to strike, I would be surprised if the company could operate 20% of its schedule. Crewing would probably give some non-strikers the day off!
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Out of synch - non strikers wouldn't be given the day off, they would all be put on standby!! It is quite common to be on s/by until 2300 on your 7th day, you know. Or did they not do that to you in GO? 
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FlapsOne
19 Jan. Precisely – the heart of the matter
Few Cloudy
19 Jan. Excellent post from a thoughtful and informed member of Easy.
Non-BALPA members of Easy
You may care to cast your minds back to the overwhelming mandate for strike action obtained a couple of years back by the BA PLC as a final counter to the “management” excesses of Ayling Bob, just prior to his heroic decision “to spend more time with his family”.
The determination of members in refusing acquiescence to needless degradations of terms of service dreamed up by an arrogant and incompetent satrap, by clearly demonstrating a will to withdraw labour if necessary, brought mature consultation and considered action in place of mindless management speak and diktat from on high. It was, needless to say, consideration of the effect that even one day’s strike would have on cash flow and profitability that brought this about, rather than the wish to suddenly be Mr Nice Guy.
If younger members of Easy have any difficulty in remembering details of the above skirmish, they will be able to rest assured that their current Chairman, who was Chairman of BA at the time, will, in contrast, be singularly unaffected by such amnesia.
You have a just cause and proposals to make your company more efficient and profitable, so safeguarding your own futures – you only have to force your “management” to listen to a “win-win” offer. Could, therefore, now be the time to join BALPA before 31 Jan, so as to participate in the coming ballot?
19 Jan. Precisely – the heart of the matter
Few Cloudy
19 Jan. Excellent post from a thoughtful and informed member of Easy.
Non-BALPA members of Easy
You may care to cast your minds back to the overwhelming mandate for strike action obtained a couple of years back by the BA PLC as a final counter to the “management” excesses of Ayling Bob, just prior to his heroic decision “to spend more time with his family”.
The determination of members in refusing acquiescence to needless degradations of terms of service dreamed up by an arrogant and incompetent satrap, by clearly demonstrating a will to withdraw labour if necessary, brought mature consultation and considered action in place of mindless management speak and diktat from on high. It was, needless to say, consideration of the effect that even one day’s strike would have on cash flow and profitability that brought this about, rather than the wish to suddenly be Mr Nice Guy.
If younger members of Easy have any difficulty in remembering details of the above skirmish, they will be able to rest assured that their current Chairman, who was Chairman of BA at the time, will, in contrast, be singularly unaffected by such amnesia.
You have a just cause and proposals to make your company more efficient and profitable, so safeguarding your own futures – you only have to force your “management” to listen to a “win-win” offer. Could, therefore, now be the time to join BALPA before 31 Jan, so as to participate in the coming ballot?
Last edited by Anotherpost75; 21st Jan 2003 at 01:03.
ex-Tanker
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Rumbo -& Another P, just trying to get to the nitty gritty. Being recently pensioned off can only comment on what I know and certainly can't speak for the others. Distance often brings clarity, though.
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HotAir:
You said, "Two years ago eJ only had 200 pilots now they have 700 so about 500 are bonded therefore many of the pilots simply cannot leave."
Wrong.
A large number of these "new" pilots are in fact ex-GO staff and are therefore not bonded.
Only those joining the company without the relevant type rating are bonded.
The vast majority of easyJet pilots are quite free to leave, should they wish. Including those with a bond still outstanding.
It is, after all, still a free country.
You said, "Two years ago eJ only had 200 pilots now they have 700 so about 500 are bonded therefore many of the pilots simply cannot leave."
Wrong.
A large number of these "new" pilots are in fact ex-GO staff and are therefore not bonded.
Only those joining the company without the relevant type rating are bonded.
The vast majority of easyJet pilots are quite free to leave, should they wish. Including those with a bond still outstanding.
It is, after all, still a free country.
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In 2 years time bonds are going to come to and end and the rate at which pilots leave will be so fast that eJ will not be able to replace them
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Jaws2001
Yes there will always be plenty of low time people out there waiting for a job and ej But EJ is already having a hard time getting pilots min requirement lowered from 1500Hr to 500Hr.
After saying that if you fail no second try, they have been calling guys that have failed the sim and asking them if they want a second try. Telling them that as a year or more has passed there ability should have improved. (Two of my friends have been called back by ej. I quote “ you only jest failed should be OK this time”)
Workshops getting smaller and smaller. Last few less than 6 showed (or maybe they only interview 6 at a time now)
Fred Peck
150 or so of the Go guys have bonds also, now transferred to ej.
Yes there will always be plenty of low time people out there waiting for a job and ej But EJ is already having a hard time getting pilots min requirement lowered from 1500Hr to 500Hr.
After saying that if you fail no second try, they have been calling guys that have failed the sim and asking them if they want a second try. Telling them that as a year or more has passed there ability should have improved. (Two of my friends have been called back by ej. I quote “ you only jest failed should be OK this time”)
Workshops getting smaller and smaller. Last few less than 6 showed (or maybe they only interview 6 at a time now)
Fred Peck
150 or so of the Go guys have bonds also, now transferred to ej.
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I think the hold of a bond is being over rated here. If the grass was definitely greener (and definitely not astroturf) then paying out a bond would be worth it to work for a happy company with a relationship of mutual respect for all it's employees... umm sort of like what Go was...
And all the talk of strike and keeping bread on the table for Tiny Tim: well a very short strike/s could have the same effect. Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.
And all the talk of strike and keeping bread on the table for Tiny Tim: well a very short strike/s could have the same effect. Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.
there may be people out there who can slot into the right seat but there arent many people who have the experience for a direct entry command and from what ive been told by colleagues etc there are a great many captains looking to leave.