easyjet pilots to strike??
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Bijave
The reason Easy and Ryanair make money is the working patterns they force on their crews. Change that and they won't make money. I agree with what you are saying but the best way to get a good life style is change Airlines, the big question is which one these days?
The reason Easy and Ryanair make money is the working patterns they force on their crews. Change that and they won't make money. I agree with what you are saying but the best way to get a good life style is change Airlines, the big question is which one these days?
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Have heard with the departure of Nick Watts, many flight deck leaving GO. Any truth in this? If so can see myself doing more hours in a taxi this summer than in the aircraft!!!!!
Strike now and maybe we can look forward to a good summer....
Strike now and maybe we can look forward to a good summer....
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Sure, you need a 5 year plan. But why would they sign anything in your favor if they are not forced to do so, at least a bit.
Also, it sounds to me that Ryanair don't use up their pilots as much as EZ and they're still making money (a lot) on a 4 ON 3 OFF basis. Simply because if well organized, that system can only cost an extra 10 to 20 % more on the pilots' salaries volume which is only a fraction of the total costs in an airline. Therefore, paying that extra 10 to 20% cost won't weigh that much in the total of the airline's costs spreadsheet. Another way of looking at it: making pilots happy keeps training costs low (less new pilots), and motivation hence efficiency high. That's why I think EZ's management is making a huge mistake by putting so much pressure on your shoulders. They are going to lose more than what they're going to gain.
And beyond spreadsheet matters, some things just cannot be accepted and I think working anything between 5 days and 7 days in a row in a cockpit is part of it. Period. If they cannot manage any differently, than the whole low-cost concept has to be rethought because, in the longer run, the strain will downgrade performance, make people age faster, and it might even kill early. If nothing is done about it, we'll only realize several years down the road. As usual.
One other thing: Something really nice is to witness management's discomfort and falling self-confidence when they realize aircraft are not taking off anymore and when they are being talked about in the media. All of a sudden, those people who simply couldn't be bothered about important issues get very shaky and quickly get back to the negociating table with much less disdain. Things are just not so easy for them anymore.
After the strike, when a good agreement has been signed, you realise how constructive this has been because it's caused a precedent.
Go for it, you won't regret it !
Also, it sounds to me that Ryanair don't use up their pilots as much as EZ and they're still making money (a lot) on a 4 ON 3 OFF basis. Simply because if well organized, that system can only cost an extra 10 to 20 % more on the pilots' salaries volume which is only a fraction of the total costs in an airline. Therefore, paying that extra 10 to 20% cost won't weigh that much in the total of the airline's costs spreadsheet. Another way of looking at it: making pilots happy keeps training costs low (less new pilots), and motivation hence efficiency high. That's why I think EZ's management is making a huge mistake by putting so much pressure on your shoulders. They are going to lose more than what they're going to gain.
And beyond spreadsheet matters, some things just cannot be accepted and I think working anything between 5 days and 7 days in a row in a cockpit is part of it. Period. If they cannot manage any differently, than the whole low-cost concept has to be rethought because, in the longer run, the strain will downgrade performance, make people age faster, and it might even kill early. If nothing is done about it, we'll only realize several years down the road. As usual.
One other thing: Something really nice is to witness management's discomfort and falling self-confidence when they realize aircraft are not taking off anymore and when they are being talked about in the media. All of a sudden, those people who simply couldn't be bothered about important issues get very shaky and quickly get back to the negociating table with much less disdain. Things are just not so easy for them anymore.
After the strike, when a good agreement has been signed, you realise how constructive this has been because it's caused a precedent.
Go for it, you won't regret it !
stilljustanothernumber
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EZY management must know that you've got them over a barrel - Easy Jet is too big now for them to find enough spare capacity to break a strike. Also, the airlines high profile and well known brand will be a problem in case of a stike ie, it'll be all over the papers. I really believe they'll back down before the strike. Good luck!
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Reading through all those pages, it becomes clear that easyjet pilots seem to be complaining about the same things as the rest of us are: too much work/ too many sectors/ not enough money/ terrible crew meals/.....
To be honest, I think especially with companies like easyjet, you are more than aware of what to expect before you join - after all, that is how they can realize the performance and financial figures. Working 5 days or more in a row is nothing unusual. You only have to take the freight companies. They work either 8 on/6 off or 16 on/12 off (in case of DHL, BRU based - as far as I know). And that's night hours. Does anybody complain there? One thing is of course because they don't have a strong union to do the fighting for them, the other might be that they are quite happy the way things are. Probably a combination of the two. They don't get crew meals either by the way; one possible way around that huge problem (shouldn't be allowed really) is to pack your own little lunchbox and carry it to work in your flightbag. Less fattening too - but possibly too much to ask.
LTNman - your comment of how easyjet pilots get a bad deal in comparison to other 'relevant airlines' in Europe displays -in my humble opinion- quite an arrogant attitude. The last Lufthansa strike pushed through by the union "cockpit" gave those insatiable pilots even more money and benefits, although they were and are the 'creme de la creme' (talking money and niceties here) of the whole German industry. Ever wondered how hard those unfortunate colleagues flying for WDL/Skyteam/LGW etc. have to work for and what they take home at the end of the month? You'd be shocked if you would ever care to look past your own nose. And, although they might also be members of 'cockpit', their needs don't get represented in the slightest way. (No, I don't work for them, just got talking about these things a while ago).
I am sure that there are things to be improved at easyjet, but I am also sure that the whole deal is not such a bad one. If it was such a bad one, there wouldn't be such a mass exodus from other airlines into easyjet. And, as somebody already said - if you don't like it, go somewhere else!
Happy flying!!
To be honest, I think especially with companies like easyjet, you are more than aware of what to expect before you join - after all, that is how they can realize the performance and financial figures. Working 5 days or more in a row is nothing unusual. You only have to take the freight companies. They work either 8 on/6 off or 16 on/12 off (in case of DHL, BRU based - as far as I know). And that's night hours. Does anybody complain there? One thing is of course because they don't have a strong union to do the fighting for them, the other might be that they are quite happy the way things are. Probably a combination of the two. They don't get crew meals either by the way; one possible way around that huge problem (shouldn't be allowed really) is to pack your own little lunchbox and carry it to work in your flightbag. Less fattening too - but possibly too much to ask.
LTNman - your comment of how easyjet pilots get a bad deal in comparison to other 'relevant airlines' in Europe displays -in my humble opinion- quite an arrogant attitude. The last Lufthansa strike pushed through by the union "cockpit" gave those insatiable pilots even more money and benefits, although they were and are the 'creme de la creme' (talking money and niceties here) of the whole German industry. Ever wondered how hard those unfortunate colleagues flying for WDL/Skyteam/LGW etc. have to work for and what they take home at the end of the month? You'd be shocked if you would ever care to look past your own nose. And, although they might also be members of 'cockpit', their needs don't get represented in the slightest way. (No, I don't work for them, just got talking about these things a while ago).
I am sure that there are things to be improved at easyjet, but I am also sure that the whole deal is not such a bad one. If it was such a bad one, there wouldn't be such a mass exodus from other airlines into easyjet. And, as somebody already said - if you don't like it, go somewhere else!
Happy flying!!
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desafinado
You may have read the pages but you haven't understood them.
Too much work - NO
Too Many Sectors - NO
Not Enough Money - NO
Terrible Crew Meals - NO
Now, how many did you get right?
The root issue is the lack of any agreement on rostering practices.
This is essential because, at the moment, rosters are issued - then changed frequently and hap-hazardly at very short notice. This leads to ridiculously long days with little return (in terms of flying).
We would all HAPPILY fly more sectors if they were sensibly and correctly rostered. The average EZ Captain flew 650 hrs last year but was screwed around from pillar to post whilst doing it.
How often to DHL guys get the lives changed each week?
The crew meals are ok but EZ want to withdraw them completely. With our current scheduling we would have to have freezers the size of Sainsburys to keep enough for the last minute lunch/dinner. 25 min turnrounds don't give time to go and get something from the airport cafe.
When was the last DHL 25 min turntound?
Money has formed the smallest part of the last several months of negotiations. Something circa rate of infaltion and the same %age rise accross the board is all that is necessary. That has not yet been offered hence no pay rise last year.
So please don't generalise. You are way off the mark with your assumptions as to what the present impasse is all about.
We, the pilots, have proposed a skeletal plan - which requires some fine tuning, but that's all - whereby the working pattern for all of us could be vastly improved whilst still increasing our flying hours productivity by circa 150-200 hrs per year.
It fell on totally deaf ears!
You may have read the pages but you haven't understood them.
it becomes clear that easyjet pilots seem to be complaining about the same things as the rest of us are: too much work/ too many sectors/ not enough money/ terrible crew meals/.....
Too Many Sectors - NO
Not Enough Money - NO
Terrible Crew Meals - NO
Now, how many did you get right?
The root issue is the lack of any agreement on rostering practices.
This is essential because, at the moment, rosters are issued - then changed frequently and hap-hazardly at very short notice. This leads to ridiculously long days with little return (in terms of flying).
We would all HAPPILY fly more sectors if they were sensibly and correctly rostered. The average EZ Captain flew 650 hrs last year but was screwed around from pillar to post whilst doing it.
How often to DHL guys get the lives changed each week?
The crew meals are ok but EZ want to withdraw them completely. With our current scheduling we would have to have freezers the size of Sainsburys to keep enough for the last minute lunch/dinner. 25 min turnrounds don't give time to go and get something from the airport cafe.
When was the last DHL 25 min turntound?
Money has formed the smallest part of the last several months of negotiations. Something circa rate of infaltion and the same %age rise accross the board is all that is necessary. That has not yet been offered hence no pay rise last year.
So please don't generalise. You are way off the mark with your assumptions as to what the present impasse is all about.
We, the pilots, have proposed a skeletal plan - which requires some fine tuning, but that's all - whereby the working pattern for all of us could be vastly improved whilst still increasing our flying hours productivity by circa 150-200 hrs per year.
It fell on totally deaf ears!
Alba Gu Brath
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FlapsOne
Is it possible to post details of the plan here or is it too long? I can't imagine an airline rejecting productivity increases such as these without good cause (unless of course there is a hidden agenda)!
Is it possible to post details of the plan here or is it too long? I can't imagine an airline rejecting productivity increases such as these without good cause (unless of course there is a hidden agenda)!
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Re DHL guys
You'd be suprised, quite often every trip is changed......but, and it's a big but, if you are away from home for 7 days staying in hotels it makes no difference whatsoever which city you end up in each morning! As long as your rostered days away aren't changed, which doesn't happen very often. It's not all sweetness and light though.........................
PP
How often to DHL guys get the lives changed each week?
PP
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I can't help feeling that all I'm reading here and hearing in various more formal and measured fora does not add up to 'stability in a dynamic environment'!
desafinado, you wrote:
'To be honest, I think especially with companies like easyjet, you are more than aware of what to expect before you join'
Do you remember the famous EZY adverts asking pilots who were sick of night flying to join them? Or the adverts saying the company intended to be an industry leader in terms of pay and conditions? Are you aware that these poor saps will shortly be kissing goodbye to their seven on, two off patterns when that particular shady deal runs out? Are you aware that the boss who oversaw the construction of the EZY terms and conditions then chose to take another company's terms and conditions as the model for further talks? Do you know that the company only relatively recently decided that pilots would only get two leave periods in the seven months of summer and three in the five months of winter, because it suited them? There's more, and worse, to come.
Thank God I'm chuckling on the sidelines and not caught up in alll this horrid business. These guys are taking another huge step towards the devaluing of the pilot's profession. I used to worry whether my BA shares might not serve me well. I'm stunned that they are doing much better than EZY now.
desafinado, you wrote:
'To be honest, I think especially with companies like easyjet, you are more than aware of what to expect before you join'
Do you remember the famous EZY adverts asking pilots who were sick of night flying to join them? Or the adverts saying the company intended to be an industry leader in terms of pay and conditions? Are you aware that these poor saps will shortly be kissing goodbye to their seven on, two off patterns when that particular shady deal runs out? Are you aware that the boss who oversaw the construction of the EZY terms and conditions then chose to take another company's terms and conditions as the model for further talks? Do you know that the company only relatively recently decided that pilots would only get two leave periods in the seven months of summer and three in the five months of winter, because it suited them? There's more, and worse, to come.
Thank God I'm chuckling on the sidelines and not caught up in alll this horrid business. These guys are taking another huge step towards the devaluing of the pilot's profession. I used to worry whether my BA shares might not serve me well. I'm stunned that they are doing much better than EZY now.
Last edited by Rumbo de Pista; 17th Jan 2003 at 05:40.
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Big Tudor
The full plot would be too long.
Suffice it to say it would stop occaisions when we drive to work and go home later having only been to AMS and back! Hardly worth getting out of bed for and a waste of my day.
On the other hand it would get rid of the LTN - PALMA - LTN - EDI - LTN sort of day that makes you yearn for your bed before you even drive home!
Comfortably within FTLs, it involves making practical and sensible use of our allowed time 'in the saddle' and minimising or abolishing time in the taxi between bases or on an unnecessary standby duty - sometimes only put in to stop us having a day off.
All this was/is achievable within a 5/3 arrangement.
I believe, but don't quote me in court, we offered the 'services' of some willing pilots to the rostering dept (for an initial trial period) to try and make it work.
We all work hard, and could work harder IF it is sensibly organised.
I (we?) cannot understand why the idea wasn't even considered.
And yes, it is different if your trips are changed whilst you are away from base anyway. If I'm away from home anyway I couldn't care less - as long as I don't have to completely re-organise my sleep pattern every 2-3 days because someone got it wrong!
Suffice it to say it would stop occaisions when we drive to work and go home later having only been to AMS and back! Hardly worth getting out of bed for and a waste of my day.
On the other hand it would get rid of the LTN - PALMA - LTN - EDI - LTN sort of day that makes you yearn for your bed before you even drive home!
Comfortably within FTLs, it involves making practical and sensible use of our allowed time 'in the saddle' and minimising or abolishing time in the taxi between bases or on an unnecessary standby duty - sometimes only put in to stop us having a day off.
All this was/is achievable within a 5/3 arrangement.
I believe, but don't quote me in court, we offered the 'services' of some willing pilots to the rostering dept (for an initial trial period) to try and make it work.
We all work hard, and could work harder IF it is sensibly organised.
I (we?) cannot understand why the idea wasn't even considered.
And yes, it is different if your trips are changed whilst you are away from base anyway. If I'm away from home anyway I couldn't care less - as long as I don't have to completely re-organise my sleep pattern every 2-3 days because someone got it wrong!
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Might be worth a word with Mervyn Granshaw at BALPA. He did a deal on FTL with Brit's that worked very well as I understand for both the company and pilots. Improved the crews life style and saved the company money.
Might help just a thought, it would give you a working example of how things can be improved, and still save the company money.
Might help just a thought, it would give you a working example of how things can be improved, and still save the company money.
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Guys & Gals of Easyjet
I know that it’s real easy (no pun intended) looking in and commentating from a warmer and sandier location but in a former life with a UK employing airline, I was involved, with many others, in a potential strike position similar to your own.
Uncannily, the issue was not money but lifestyle quality (or lack of) produced by basing and roster issues – could it be true that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it?
Again by mysterious coincidence, our “management” was of the true British mould, being top-down, obdurate, arrogant, dismissive and greedy – sound familiar?
Relations between the indians and the chiefs rapidly became rancid and the inevitable ballot produced an overwhelming mandate for a strike forthwith, unless serious negotiations for change, along the lines proposed by the pilots, was entered into.
This ultimatum was naturally ignored by the “powers” and a date was duly forwarded to them for the first total withdrawal of labour.
So legend has it, the “management” then huddled round, fished out their empty fag packets to make their calculations on the back of (standard procedure for everything) and worked out:
(a) the ₤millions that would be hemorrhaged in that first strike day alone
(b) the effect that a prolonged strike would have on the company’s profitability and much more importantly, on their own personal annual bonuses
(c) the pilots’ proposal could actually save the company money
(d) they would look complete horses a*rses in the subsequent enquiry conducted by the shareholders, if the strike went ahead.
Result? Negotiations proceeded in a serious and businesslike manner, issues were resolved, the company saved money (jeez, some of these pilots seem to have more than three grey cells between them!) and peace and productivity reigned.
Lesson? If you all stick together, stay focused on the key issue, mean it when you say strike and fully comply with the national industrial relations legislation, then, as the taxi driver says, “you’re speaking the only language they understand, guv” and they can only sanely respond in one way.
So stay together and you won’t have to strike.
I know that it’s real easy (no pun intended) looking in and commentating from a warmer and sandier location but in a former life with a UK employing airline, I was involved, with many others, in a potential strike position similar to your own.
Uncannily, the issue was not money but lifestyle quality (or lack of) produced by basing and roster issues – could it be true that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it?
Again by mysterious coincidence, our “management” was of the true British mould, being top-down, obdurate, arrogant, dismissive and greedy – sound familiar?
Relations between the indians and the chiefs rapidly became rancid and the inevitable ballot produced an overwhelming mandate for a strike forthwith, unless serious negotiations for change, along the lines proposed by the pilots, was entered into.
This ultimatum was naturally ignored by the “powers” and a date was duly forwarded to them for the first total withdrawal of labour.
So legend has it, the “management” then huddled round, fished out their empty fag packets to make their calculations on the back of (standard procedure for everything) and worked out:
(a) the ₤millions that would be hemorrhaged in that first strike day alone
(b) the effect that a prolonged strike would have on the company’s profitability and much more importantly, on their own personal annual bonuses
(c) the pilots’ proposal could actually save the company money
(d) they would look complete horses a*rses in the subsequent enquiry conducted by the shareholders, if the strike went ahead.
Result? Negotiations proceeded in a serious and businesslike manner, issues were resolved, the company saved money (jeez, some of these pilots seem to have more than three grey cells between them!) and peace and productivity reigned.
Lesson? If you all stick together, stay focused on the key issue, mean it when you say strike and fully comply with the national industrial relations legislation, then, as the taxi driver says, “you’re speaking the only language they understand, guv” and they can only sanely respond in one way.
So stay together and you won’t have to strike.
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If any of you are interested, as you don't appear to be a happy lot, for the last 2 weeks, and only in the local wekly 'Pravda' internal newspaper, BA have been asking for any interested would-be co-pilots to be based LHR/LGW ; criteria - current JAR ATPL or frozen ATPL ....oh, and 'the personal attributes that will make a positive contribution to the Flt Ops team' ...etc unquote.
Anyone interested.
Anyone interested.
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FlapsOne - no need to get too excited or agressive about these things! After all, all those points I picked up on(work/sectors/money/meals) were mentioned and complained about in more than one of the replies. And, funny enough, in your own one a bit further down where you complain about days with too few sectors (AMS and back, not worth getting out of bed for) or too many. As I said, all sounds very familiar to me, seems to be pretty much the case wherever you go. Might be just me again though, reading but not understanding it. Sorry.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I've got to agree with kinsman,
It is not in the interests of either pilots or the company to have roster instability. The quicker that management realise that it is in their financial interests not to mess peoples lives around. If you've rostered a crew efficiently in the first place a change of programme reduces that efficiency.
Block Standby’s are the only proper way to keep the programme stable.
You would have thought that the rest would have seen what was happening in "Brits" and learnt from it.
It is not in the interests of either pilots or the company to have roster instability. The quicker that management realise that it is in their financial interests not to mess peoples lives around. If you've rostered a crew efficiently in the first place a change of programme reduces that efficiency.
Block Standby’s are the only proper way to keep the programme stable.
You would have thought that the rest would have seen what was happening in "Brits" and learnt from it.