Ryanair-Capt's airside/Armed Forces ID bad-Student ID good (Merged)
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The Soldier's regiment had taken his passport from him earlier in readiness for deployment to the Gulf. Ryanair were told this, and still didn't have the common sense to let him travel. In the end, he was driven up, using a day's leave that was probably the last he will have before going to war.
Ryanair are bringing air travel down and should be ashamed of their attitude.
Ryanair are bringing air travel down and should be ashamed of their attitude.
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Ryanair are bringing air travel down and should be ashamed of their attitude.
This is simply a case of someone not following the rules! Why the heck should Ryanair bend their rules for anyone! Being a member of the armed services this soldier/his regiment should have known all about following orders!!
There is no excuse. Kudos to Ryanair for not bowing under pressure!
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I would make two points:
Firstly, now that the problem has arisen, for Ryanair not to immediately accept British Military ID's is insulting to both the armed services and all the ex-servicemen and women in the UK (and the Republic). It is also insulting to the elected government of the UK, not to mention everyone who places a value on the armed forces. It certainly conflicts with most peoples logic and commonsense.
Secondly, to score points off some inexperienced young trooper so that Ryanair staff can swagger and preen at their cleverness and omnipotence beggars belief. Have they no sense of the outrage that will take place if, (heaven forbid) this young man should be injured or killed in the forthcoming coflict? You don't have to be a journalist to imagine the sort of headline that will be written should this happen.
Ryanair! you have embarrassed the rest of us in the aviation family. Perhaps you should consider who it is that provides the freedom that you operate under...even though they don't charge you much for the service!
Firstly, now that the problem has arisen, for Ryanair not to immediately accept British Military ID's is insulting to both the armed services and all the ex-servicemen and women in the UK (and the Republic). It is also insulting to the elected government of the UK, not to mention everyone who places a value on the armed forces. It certainly conflicts with most peoples logic and commonsense.
Secondly, to score points off some inexperienced young trooper so that Ryanair staff can swagger and preen at their cleverness and omnipotence beggars belief. Have they no sense of the outrage that will take place if, (heaven forbid) this young man should be injured or killed in the forthcoming coflict? You don't have to be a journalist to imagine the sort of headline that will be written should this happen.
Ryanair! you have embarrassed the rest of us in the aviation family. Perhaps you should consider who it is that provides the freedom that you operate under...even though they don't charge you much for the service!
Shining Example, apparently...
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I'll try to make my point without the hysterical indignation, petty sarcasm and ludicrous assumptions of some previous postings 
:
Ryanair offer minimal service for a minimal fare. They never pretended otherwise. It's an open market and you get what you pay for. The Underimpressed are welcome to fly with an upmarket carrier - and pay accordingly.
:Ryanair offer minimal service for a minimal fare. They never pretended otherwise. It's an open market and you get what you pay for. The Underimpressed are welcome to fly with an upmarket carrier - and pay accordingly.
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Crepello,
Look at what is happening here. A young (and low paid) man has his passport held centrally by his regiment in order that, when the time comes for him to do his job, there are no problems with getting everyone out quickly and efficiently. In other words, it is not his fault that he doesn't have a passport.
How would you feel in his position - home to see his parents with the prospect of a dirty, hot, uncomfortable and downright dangerous few months, and has to spend most of his time arguing with a jobsworth on the telephone who is only interested in getting brownie points from MOL.
You say 'I'll try to make my point without the hysterical indignation, petty sarcasm and ludicrous assumptions'. Well your post is the epitomy of petty sarcasm, and if you can't see indignation in spades from just about everyone in this and two other threads without assuming it is hysterical, then that ranks as the most ludicrous assumption of them all.
Look at what is happening here. A young (and low paid) man has his passport held centrally by his regiment in order that, when the time comes for him to do his job, there are no problems with getting everyone out quickly and efficiently. In other words, it is not his fault that he doesn't have a passport.
How would you feel in his position - home to see his parents with the prospect of a dirty, hot, uncomfortable and downright dangerous few months, and has to spend most of his time arguing with a jobsworth on the telephone who is only interested in getting brownie points from MOL.
You say 'I'll try to make my point without the hysterical indignation, petty sarcasm and ludicrous assumptions'. Well your post is the epitomy of petty sarcasm, and if you can't see indignation in spades from just about everyone in this and two other threads without assuming it is hysterical, then that ranks as the most ludicrous assumption of them all.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I do wonder if this has anything to do with identity and everything to do with finding ways of not carrying people who have paid for a ticket. By all means demand identification by a proper ID but there is no reason why that ID cannot be wider than it currently is.
Passports are regularly faked, as are driving licences, so unless the number of the identification is checked against a central database it is worthless.
I just wonder if the real reason is to deny a passenger boarding which then requires them to miss the flight, allowing a weight-listed passenger to board. The refused passenger then has to buy another ticket for a later flight at a premium rate.
2 extra tickets sold.
Passports are regularly faked, as are driving licences, so unless the number of the identification is checked against a central database it is worthless.
I just wonder if the real reason is to deny a passenger boarding which then requires them to miss the flight, allowing a weight-listed passenger to board. The refused passenger then has to buy another ticket for a later flight at a premium rate.
2 extra tickets sold.
Military & Other Forms of ID
In my opinion, the attitude of the carrier in question on this topic was totally unwarranted however....,
A short time ago prior to me drawing my first company pension payment, I wished to open a further savings account at a local bank I had not used previously. One of the items they demanded was ID and I offerred my then CAA airline employees ID card, which incidently gained me access then to airside on most airfields worldwide. This was flatly refused as being unacceptable to the bank, who would only accept a passport, driving licence, student ID card, I was actually asked if I had one of these!.
In slight mitigation, I do not think the 18 year old behind the counter really knew what a pilot was, let alone recognising a bona fide airline ID card. I attempted what I thought was a sensible argument, but to no avail and I got nowhere.
On the subject of the military ID card. When I was flying in the military, I did in fact now and then have `HM theQ` among my passengers on the aircraft. My military ID card then as do civil aviation ID cards now I am afraid, afford the bearer little chance of proving just who he or she is to the average jobs worth plonker.
A short time ago prior to me drawing my first company pension payment, I wished to open a further savings account at a local bank I had not used previously. One of the items they demanded was ID and I offerred my then CAA airline employees ID card, which incidently gained me access then to airside on most airfields worldwide. This was flatly refused as being unacceptable to the bank, who would only accept a passport, driving licence, student ID card, I was actually asked if I had one of these!.
In slight mitigation, I do not think the 18 year old behind the counter really knew what a pilot was, let alone recognising a bona fide airline ID card. I attempted what I thought was a sensible argument, but to no avail and I got nowhere.
On the subject of the military ID card. When I was flying in the military, I did in fact now and then have `HM theQ` among my passengers on the aircraft. My military ID card then as do civil aviation ID cards now I am afraid, afford the bearer little chance of proving just who he or she is to the average jobs worth plonker.
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Some people still don't get it. It's amazing.
Rules are bloody rules no exceptions!
There is no media coup, no patting on the back, and I certainly can't understand the melodramatic comments regarding "insulting the armed forces, the country, humanity" etc. etc.....absolute irrelevant waffle.
The terms & conditions are clearly made available for all to see (and abide by). Until such time as FR accept military ID (notice I have nothing against that part of the argument), there will be no exceptions - either you bring with you the required ID, as laid out in Ryanair Terms & Conditions - or you will NOT be accepted for carriage.
There is NO excuse for failure to read or comply with the Terms & Conditions.
The rest (including all the media waffle, moans & anti Ryanair whining) are utterly irrelevant.
You all have a choice. No one forces anyone else to fly with Ryanair. The fact that millions do choose to fly with them suggests the majority of people are willing and able to comply with some simple instructions.
I can't believe I've had to explain this so many times - it's a pretty basic concept.
Rules are bloody rules no exceptions!
There is no media coup, no patting on the back, and I certainly can't understand the melodramatic comments regarding "insulting the armed forces, the country, humanity" etc. etc.....absolute irrelevant waffle.
The terms & conditions are clearly made available for all to see (and abide by). Until such time as FR accept military ID (notice I have nothing against that part of the argument), there will be no exceptions - either you bring with you the required ID, as laid out in Ryanair Terms & Conditions - or you will NOT be accepted for carriage.
There is NO excuse for failure to read or comply with the Terms & Conditions.
The rest (including all the media waffle, moans & anti Ryanair whining) are utterly irrelevant.
You all have a choice. No one forces anyone else to fly with Ryanair. The fact that millions do choose to fly with them suggests the majority of people are willing and able to comply with some simple instructions.
I can't believe I've had to explain this so many times - it's a pretty basic concept.
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AJ,
Have anyone ever bent a rule to help you out when in a bind, or have you ever done so for anyone ever yourself? No I didn't think so - in my company we just about always do our best to wait for a late inbound flight for transfer pax, or negotiate with the handling agent to help one of our pax catch a connection. I wonder if you would ever be one of those people? Betta stick with Ryanair matey...
Have anyone ever bent a rule to help you out when in a bind, or have you ever done so for anyone ever yourself? No I didn't think so - in my company we just about always do our best to wait for a late inbound flight for transfer pax, or negotiate with the handling agent to help one of our pax catch a connection. I wonder if you would ever be one of those people? Betta stick with Ryanair matey...
Last edited by TDK mk2; 10th Feb 2003 at 23:36.
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AJ
Words fail me at the crass and downright offensive attitude which Ryanair (and you apparently) with to perpetuate.
I find it hard to belive that any normal PR person would describe there customers (after all they are the ones who ultimately pay the salaries) in such a patronising manner.
Interestingly, even after all your verbal guff, we still have seen no sign of Ryanair accepting what to everyone else is plain common sense; that a military ID card should present a far lower security risk than an International Student Identity Card. After all the holder has been vetted, unlike most students who if my recollection is correct just go and buy their ISIC cards -although it is a while since I held one.
Therefore I have to agree with the suggestion above, that it really is just a reason for Ryanair to take the money and deny someone their ticket for any old reason - or perhaps there is another reason MOL does not want to accept a UK military ID card yet will accept lesser forms of ID?
Yet another example of the Ryanair conforntational style of management and customer care.
TZ
Edited for spelling
Words fail me at the crass and downright offensive attitude which Ryanair (and you apparently) with to perpetuate.
I find it hard to belive that any normal PR person would describe there customers (after all they are the ones who ultimately pay the salaries) in such a patronising manner.
Interestingly, even after all your verbal guff, we still have seen no sign of Ryanair accepting what to everyone else is plain common sense; that a military ID card should present a far lower security risk than an International Student Identity Card. After all the holder has been vetted, unlike most students who if my recollection is correct just go and buy their ISIC cards -although it is a while since I held one.
Therefore I have to agree with the suggestion above, that it really is just a reason for Ryanair to take the money and deny someone their ticket for any old reason - or perhaps there is another reason MOL does not want to accept a UK military ID card yet will accept lesser forms of ID?
Yet another example of the Ryanair conforntational style of management and customer care.
TZ
Edited for spelling
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There seem to be too many posts on this thread totally in favour of this anti-passenger airline's attitude - cannot be coincidence. Guess Ryanair are here with us posting away and defending their attitude to the few fare-paying wannabe passengers who cannot travel because, carelessly, they did not read the conditions. Just remember, Ryanair, when you have got over your current expansion and your passenger numbers are dwindling you will not be the airline of choice unless you are prepared to accept that all your customers are important to you. 'Look after your customer or someone else will."
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Its not just UK airports where this goes on, allmost everyday at ams I saw the same thing when we had cabin crew based locally. They were issued with ams airside passes but security ther would not let them airside!! When asked why the security mann would inevitably say thepasses were not valid airside (precisely what they were issued for). When the girls then shoew their co id (which is not a security pass just a card to assist in purchasing rebate tickets) they were let through without any questions.
On top of all this one girl was told if she tried to use her ams pass again it would be taken away from her and another was told that she would be arrested if she wore it on airport sby with her civvies on.
I could go on but I just wanted to say iyts not only in the uk we have thes problems, I also cant help feeling sorry for Homer, had this happened when on his own he would probably have been annoyed with himself for a few minutes then got on with it, but as it is Marge probably made him pay for it for almost a week, or am I the only one with a wife like that!?!
On top of all this one girl was told if she tried to use her ams pass again it would be taken away from her and another was told that she would be arrested if she wore it on airport sby with her civvies on.
I could go on but I just wanted to say iyts not only in the uk we have thes problems, I also cant help feeling sorry for Homer, had this happened when on his own he would probably have been annoyed with himself for a few minutes then got on with it, but as it is Marge probably made him pay for it for almost a week, or am I the only one with a wife like that!?!
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I have no idea why some of you think I might be associated with Ryanair. I have nothing to do with them whatsoever.
However, I do have some common sense, and I feel the anti-FR rhetoric here on pprune requires balance, and some measure of objectivity (which I believe I am capable of, as I do not work for Ryanair.)
Which patronising manner is this?
Common sense is about reading the T & C's and abiding by them accordingly. In this case, it is about bringing with you to the airport, ID deemed appropriate by the airline you intend to fly with - not whichever ID you believe 'should' be accepted. Simple, no?
Sorry, due to the lack of any evidence to suggest this is indeed the case, I would take a guess that this is a load of rubbish/anti-FR rhetoric.
Good for you. Low-cost operations do not (and cannot) afford to take such measures - most punters know the deal with regards to making connections (because they've read the T & C's...). Perhaps those passengers who would prefer seamless connections might fly with your airline instead? It's a free world...
However, I do have some common sense, and I feel the anti-FR rhetoric here on pprune requires balance, and some measure of objectivity (which I believe I am capable of, as I do not work for Ryanair.)
I find it hard to belive that any normal PR person would describe there customers (after all they are the ones who ultimately pay the salaries) in such a patronising manner.
Interestingly, even after all your verbal guff, we still have seen no sign of Ryanair accepting what to everyone else is plain common sense
Therefore I have to agree with the suggestion above, that it really is just a reason for Ryanair to take the money and deny someone their ticket for any old reason
in my company we just about always do our best to wait for a late inbound flight for transfer pax, or negotiate with the handling agent to help one of our pax catch a connection. I wonder if you would ever be one of those people? Betta stick with Ryanair matey...
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TDK mk2, are you seriously advocating 'bending rules' when it comes to airline security???? 
Sorry mate, but that kind of attitude in the current climate won't get you very far at all.
I can imagine that the argument against increasing the number of cards on the 'approved' list. This would lead to a lack in recognition ability as even low level staff would have to learn to recognise a multitude of cards. For 210k Armed Forces personnel out of a UK population of 60 million, it's just not worth the effort. And what do you do about Armed Forces from other countries?
The whole reason for having rules like this is that everyone is treated the same.......if some people can't handle that then they're welcome to take their business elsewhere. Ryanair staff understand their t&cs, 99.9% of their pax seem to as well. What's the problem?
PS - to get an ISIC card you need to show confirmation that you are enrolled in full time education. This usually takes the form of photo ID in the form of your university ID card, which is also your NUS card.
Sorry mate, but that kind of attitude in the current climate won't get you very far at all.
I can imagine that the argument against increasing the number of cards on the 'approved' list. This would lead to a lack in recognition ability as even low level staff would have to learn to recognise a multitude of cards. For 210k Armed Forces personnel out of a UK population of 60 million, it's just not worth the effort. And what do you do about Armed Forces from other countries?
The whole reason for having rules like this is that everyone is treated the same.......if some people can't handle that then they're welcome to take their business elsewhere. Ryanair staff understand their t&cs, 99.9% of their pax seem to as well. What's the problem?
PS - to get an ISIC card you need to show confirmation that you are enrolled in full time education. This usually takes the form of photo ID in the form of your university ID card, which is also your NUS card.
e28 driver
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It's got nothing to do with being anti Ryanair, on my part anyway. It just seems that in this situation at least they accepted that the person was who they said they were, but instead of observing the spirit of the terms and conditions as stated they decided to take it to the absolute letter as if god would strike them down if an exception were made where common sense prevailed. The term 'jobs worth' springs to mind.
Generally speaking with regard to low cost carriers there is clearly massive expansion going on at present which will continue for some time, but as mobile phone companies found out the market is finite. Hitherto LCCs have not generally competed directly with each other but once the market is saturated they will have to start going head to head if they wish to maintain growth rates. Additionally they may find that full service carriers do not become extinct as predicted by many but adapt to meet the challenge. This is when Ryanair may be wise to reassess it's attitude to customer service...
P.S. Bahrainlad: this has NOTHING to do with security. Many airlines don't require any ID for intra British Isles flights at this time. Low cost carriers want to prevent anyone selling on non refundable/non transferrable flights another party which is fair enough but not accepting such obvious forms of ID such as airside passes and armed forces ID makes sense only to those with a brain just big enough to interpret rules letter by letter.
Generally speaking with regard to low cost carriers there is clearly massive expansion going on at present which will continue for some time, but as mobile phone companies found out the market is finite. Hitherto LCCs have not generally competed directly with each other but once the market is saturated they will have to start going head to head if they wish to maintain growth rates. Additionally they may find that full service carriers do not become extinct as predicted by many but adapt to meet the challenge. This is when Ryanair may be wise to reassess it's attitude to customer service...
P.S. Bahrainlad: this has NOTHING to do with security. Many airlines don't require any ID for intra British Isles flights at this time. Low cost carriers want to prevent anyone selling on non refundable/non transferrable flights another party which is fair enough but not accepting such obvious forms of ID such as airside passes and armed forces ID makes sense only to those with a brain just big enough to interpret rules letter by letter.
Last edited by TDK mk2; 11th Feb 2003 at 00:21.
Shining Example, apparently...
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As far as I was aware, all UK carriers operating transport category aircraft introduced the photo-ID requirement after 9/11. An interesting point though - I don't know the facts, can anyone clarify?
Llademos, I'm not picking a fight but I find your reply mystifying. Please indicate the sarcasm in my earlier posting, or retract your statement. 'Indignation in spades from just about everyone' sounds hysterical to me, but it's subjective so we'll differ.
The specifics of this case aren't very relevant; there are two issues under debate:
1. Whether Ryanair's ID policy is 'fair'. I reiterate: The rules are clear. If you don't like them, take your custom elsewhere.
2. Whether the rules should be open to interpretation. FR's managers are paid to make the rules. Their staff are paid to enforce them. If rules were bent for all travellers with exceptional circumstances, there'd be no point in having an ID policy.
I generally avoid Ryanair as I don't like their service philosophy. Yes, I think they risk becoming the Ratner's of air travel but they're thriving right now. But here's the bottom line: Unless you're a majority shareholder, you're not in a position to demand changes.
Llademos, I'm not picking a fight but I find your reply mystifying. Please indicate the sarcasm in my earlier posting, or retract your statement. 'Indignation in spades from just about everyone' sounds hysterical to me, but it's subjective so we'll differ.
The specifics of this case aren't very relevant; there are two issues under debate:
1. Whether Ryanair's ID policy is 'fair'. I reiterate: The rules are clear. If you don't like them, take your custom elsewhere.
2. Whether the rules should be open to interpretation. FR's managers are paid to make the rules. Their staff are paid to enforce them. If rules were bent for all travellers with exceptional circumstances, there'd be no point in having an ID policy.
I generally avoid Ryanair as I don't like their service philosophy. Yes, I think they risk becoming the Ratner's of air travel but they're thriving right now. But here's the bottom line: Unless you're a majority shareholder, you're not in a position to demand changes.
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Latest news is that 400 troops are deployed to guard LHR.
I presume that this will also include other UK airports.
I do hope that they take a set of ID's with them that will be acceptable to all the airlines that they may have to defend!
I presume that this will also include other UK airports.
I do hope that they take a set of ID's with them that will be acceptable to all the airlines that they may have to defend!
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besides, the ryan air check-in person will get demerit points if he/she gives anybody exemptions. So to ensure they keep their jobs, do you really think they will risk that for some idiot they don't know?
Don't blame the lemming staff, blame the PR department..
Don't blame the lemming staff, blame the PR department..
So, according to FR, an International Students ID card (as bought by any low life from the back of FHM and Loaded magazines) is a better form of security than my RAF ID and my 29 years of serving 'Her Maj', security clearance etc etc..
I suggest all new recruits are issued with a mil ID and an 'International students ID card', whatever that is. It's obviously the ID of choice for FR.
I suggest all new recruits are issued with a mil ID and an 'International students ID card', whatever that is. It's obviously the ID of choice for FR.
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I have no problem with the part of the argument which favours a review of Ryanair's acceptable forms of ID. Of course, let us have a debate, let us write to Ryanair and request they consider accepting ID cards issued by the Armed Forces and other institutions. Why not?
What I do not find acceptable, is that some of you are blaming an airline for NOT bending its own rules!!
What I also find unacceptable, and rather crass, is the fact that a lot of posters use the incident as an excuse to have a general go at Ryanair for no valid reason . This includes ("oh I hate them because they're riff-raff...they don't have a 'proper' seating policy....they're an embarrassment to civil aviation..." ...and other such inane comments).
These are not valid reasons. These are your own personal opinions which an increasing number of travellers in Britain and Europe, it would appear, do not share with you.
I would hazard a guess that Ryanair only accept a finite number of different IDs in order to keep things simple. Any of you that have passed through Stansted at peak times will have noticed the monstrous queues which develop behind the various airline desks. In order to process passengers more efficiently, it is probably best if staff limited themselves to accepting a small number of instantly recognizable/verifiable IDs.
As soon as you start making exceptions, as others have noted, problems inevitably rise - and if you have over 150 people to check-in within the hour, you do not want to have to make people wait in order to verify a NATS/BAA/Barclays Bank/whatever ID card.
The average punter no longer regards flying as a glamorous past-time. Most travellers regard a short-haul flight as a bus service, which should therefore be priced accordingly. That is exactly what Ryanair is delivering. Its success is down to its ability to give people what they want, and at low cost. You may balk at such an ideology/strategy, but the reality is that the low-cost airline, is the airline of the future.
That does not mean the end of the established carriers, but it does mean that they will have to modify the way they operate, if they wish to continue to provide the kind of service which differentiates them from the likes of Ryanair.
By the way, here is some sound advice; whenever you intend to fly anywhere (domestic or international) the best form of ID is simply your passport. It's not that difficult.
What I do not find acceptable, is that some of you are blaming an airline for NOT bending its own rules!!
What I also find unacceptable, and rather crass, is the fact that a lot of posters use the incident as an excuse to have a general go at Ryanair for no valid reason . This includes ("oh I hate them because they're riff-raff...they don't have a 'proper' seating policy....they're an embarrassment to civil aviation..." ...and other such inane comments).
These are not valid reasons. These are your own personal opinions which an increasing number of travellers in Britain and Europe, it would appear, do not share with you.
I would hazard a guess that Ryanair only accept a finite number of different IDs in order to keep things simple. Any of you that have passed through Stansted at peak times will have noticed the monstrous queues which develop behind the various airline desks. In order to process passengers more efficiently, it is probably best if staff limited themselves to accepting a small number of instantly recognizable/verifiable IDs.
As soon as you start making exceptions, as others have noted, problems inevitably rise - and if you have over 150 people to check-in within the hour, you do not want to have to make people wait in order to verify a NATS/BAA/Barclays Bank/whatever ID card.
The average punter no longer regards flying as a glamorous past-time. Most travellers regard a short-haul flight as a bus service, which should therefore be priced accordingly. That is exactly what Ryanair is delivering. Its success is down to its ability to give people what they want, and at low cost. You may balk at such an ideology/strategy, but the reality is that the low-cost airline, is the airline of the future.
That does not mean the end of the established carriers, but it does mean that they will have to modify the way they operate, if they wish to continue to provide the kind of service which differentiates them from the likes of Ryanair.
By the way, here is some sound advice; whenever you intend to fly anywhere (domestic or international) the best form of ID is simply your passport. It's not that difficult.