Ryanair-Capt's airside/Armed Forces ID bad-Student ID good (Merged)
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I think some people are missing the point here.........
Before I start, I would just like to put on record that I have never travelled FR, have never worked for them, applied for a job with them or anything else. I have no opinion about their operation at all. So I'm not an "FR-basher".
The crux of this matter is the very worrying misguided application of security rules by FR. Of course it's up to them what rules to make, but surely they have a responsibility to enforce SENSIBLE security rules meticulously to their operation, as does any other airline. The fact of the matter is that if they are not going to accept airline ID's, HM Forces ID's etc., then they should certainly not be accepting student ID's!!!!! The checks that go into ( or are supposed to go into) the issuing of airside and Forces/Police passes should make them the ID of choice for airlines to accept.
As has already been pointed out, you can obtain a student ID from the back pages of FHM or on the net with ease. Driver's Licences can be easily obtained too if you provide the right info. And anyone who knows what he or she is about (i.e. a trained terrorist) can obtain as many passports as they like, in all sorts of different names.
Security cannot be assured, but all you can do is try to shorten the odds as much as possible. It seems to me that accepting student ID's is most distinctly NOT shortening the odds, as they can be obtained childishly simply. Worrying.
I have a Blockbuster video card - is that OK????!!!!!
Before I start, I would just like to put on record that I have never travelled FR, have never worked for them, applied for a job with them or anything else. I have no opinion about their operation at all. So I'm not an "FR-basher".
The crux of this matter is the very worrying misguided application of security rules by FR. Of course it's up to them what rules to make, but surely they have a responsibility to enforce SENSIBLE security rules meticulously to their operation, as does any other airline. The fact of the matter is that if they are not going to accept airline ID's, HM Forces ID's etc., then they should certainly not be accepting student ID's!!!!! The checks that go into ( or are supposed to go into) the issuing of airside and Forces/Police passes should make them the ID of choice for airlines to accept.
As has already been pointed out, you can obtain a student ID from the back pages of FHM or on the net with ease. Driver's Licences can be easily obtained too if you provide the right info. And anyone who knows what he or she is about (i.e. a trained terrorist) can obtain as many passports as they like, in all sorts of different names.
Security cannot be assured, but all you can do is try to shorten the odds as much as possible. It seems to me that accepting student ID's is most distinctly NOT shortening the odds, as they can be obtained childishly simply. Worrying.
I have a Blockbuster video card - is that OK????!!!!!
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SLT
If you read the original post, it ended with a rhetorical question that was not security oriented....
Forgive me for saying that I think you are arguing the wrong argument in this context and maybe you would like to start a new thread on the subject of the security implications of check in policies. It would be topical and valid IMHO.
To re-iterate, "Who needs common sense when you've got a "policy" - it would appear not to be check in agents handling Ryanair, as the policy is clear, unambiguous and not open to interpretation according to an earlier comment from such as person, which as I have hypothesised in previous posts is maybe the reason it was written this way
I think some people are missing the point here.........
Who needs common sense when you've got a "policy"
To re-iterate, "Who needs common sense when you've got a "policy" - it would appear not to be check in agents handling Ryanair, as the policy is clear, unambiguous and not open to interpretation according to an earlier comment from such as person, which as I have hypothesised in previous posts is maybe the reason it was written this way
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Another ID-nonsense story :
As an employee of the aviation authority I own a special authority ID which gives me the right by law, to enter any aircraft company I want. This is working fine for any small company, where the secretary who also manages the entry, knows what she is doing. Tying so in a big company, the security man at the entrance (belonging to a security company, not to the aircraft manufacturer) normally refuses entry and sends me to the reception counter. There I have to wait in a long row, fill in some forms, wait for some telephone calls with my partners in the company (which normally is unsuccesful, because they are not in their office but in the meeting room, waiting for me ...) and then get a visitors ID and the clearance to enter ten to fifteen minutes later.
On the other hand, showing the cash-free-lunch credit card of the authorities casino (which has also a photo and the authorities logo on it) to the man at the entrance works fine. No further question, just entering the company ! And these cards are given even to the authorities janitors, which of course have no right to enter any company.
The whole security business is just a big joke !
As an employee of the aviation authority I own a special authority ID which gives me the right by law, to enter any aircraft company I want. This is working fine for any small company, where the secretary who also manages the entry, knows what she is doing. Tying so in a big company, the security man at the entrance (belonging to a security company, not to the aircraft manufacturer) normally refuses entry and sends me to the reception counter. There I have to wait in a long row, fill in some forms, wait for some telephone calls with my partners in the company (which normally is unsuccesful, because they are not in their office but in the meeting room, waiting for me ...) and then get a visitors ID and the clearance to enter ten to fifteen minutes later.
On the other hand, showing the cash-free-lunch credit card of the authorities casino (which has also a photo and the authorities logo on it) to the man at the entrance works fine. No further question, just entering the company ! And these cards are given even to the authorities janitors, which of course have no right to enter any company.
The whole security business is just a big joke !
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I have said before on another thread like this THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECURITY.Where ID not required there would be nothing to stop me buying a ticket at (e.g)Ł20 all in and flogging it to a mate for Ł30....he turns up happy ...I make a tenner and (if they found out it was going on)Ryanair get mad!!(and why not!)HOWEVER if it says in their rules that you need such and such to travel ....well I presume you can all read and are capable of making your own judgements as to whether your ID is sufficient.
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Slightly off topic, but a good laugh - Mr PilotWolf's problem with a bank reminded me of a visit to my branch recently:
Presented the cheque at the counter to be told "Sorry - can't cash it. The computer's down."
"Do you mean to say you've got no money?" I asked in all innocence.
"No. But we can't cheque your signature."
"But my account is with this branch. Don't you have a copy of the signature here?"
"No. Only on the computer server. You can come back in two hours."
"Not so. But, tell me - is it just that you need the signature to be verified?"
The poor girl looked at me as if I were stupid (I am, but she didn't know that). "That's right."
"No problem," I said. "Let me see it." She handed me back the cheque.
I looked at it most carefully, then passed it back. "Yes. It's the correct signature."
She didn't say a word; just gave me the cash.
Wonderful. Now if you wrote that as part of a sitcom would anybody believe it?
Nowt so queer as folk...
Presented the cheque at the counter to be told "Sorry - can't cash it. The computer's down."
"Do you mean to say you've got no money?" I asked in all innocence.
"No. But we can't cheque your signature."
"But my account is with this branch. Don't you have a copy of the signature here?"
"No. Only on the computer server. You can come back in two hours."
"Not so. But, tell me - is it just that you need the signature to be verified?"
The poor girl looked at me as if I were stupid (I am, but she didn't know that). "That's right."
"No problem," I said. "Let me see it." She handed me back the cheque.
I looked at it most carefully, then passed it back. "Yes. It's the correct signature."
She didn't say a word; just gave me the cash.
Wonderful. Now if you wrote that as part of a sitcom would anybody believe it?
Nowt so queer as folk...
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Back to the original topic just for a mo., and some food for thought about Ryanair's carefully [sic] thoughtout i.d. policy.
This evening's (U.K. T.V.) news televised an item about gun and drug related crime in the U.K. The focus of the report suggested that the majority of perpetrators were of Jamaican descent and not entitled to remain in this country.
Most notably though, the article pointed out that the easiest way for such miscreants to remain at liberty in the country was to enrol at a local college/school and obtain a Student ID Card!!
N.B. Having just booked a couple of tickets with EasyJet, I noted that they accept acredited aircrew amongst their criteria.
This evening's (U.K. T.V.) news televised an item about gun and drug related crime in the U.K. The focus of the report suggested that the majority of perpetrators were of Jamaican descent and not entitled to remain in this country.
Most notably though, the article pointed out that the easiest way for such miscreants to remain at liberty in the country was to enrol at a local college/school and obtain a Student ID Card!!
N.B. Having just booked a couple of tickets with EasyJet, I noted that they accept acredited aircrew amongst their criteria.
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Travelled with bmibaby at the weekend, who gladly accepted my aircrew pass (British Airways), and provided a very good service. What can I say? I would again if I needed to.
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Now I hope I'm not gonna drag this even further done the line... but I work on checkin at a certain airport (No guessing now!) checking in FR pax.... Now my worst nightmare on check-in is having a argument with some pap about what the right and wrong ID is (I've encountered Police officers, flight crew, FR staff but to name a few). Now maybe I'm a good or bad check-in agent but I'll contact someone at ryanair to ask if the pap can travel with whatever incorrect ID they've brought.... guaranteed I'll get a NO answer back.... Now I'm not slagin FR off cause of there "Policy" it's there and theres nowt I can do about.... I'll be as simpathetic to the pap about his/her error... but hey I've tried my best....Now, I've popped me tuppence worth in cause somebody (I'm not gonna be bothered scrolling through the post to find it's name) said that the Check-in agents seem to enjoy turning pax away... Why?? Is it more money in my pocket??? Nope!!! It's less time I've got to have a ciggy before getting the so called "SLF" on to wherever there going.... It's faster for me to gettem all checked in than it is to have an argument about whose wrong and whose right....
Any how... That was my first post.... I quite enjoyed it!!!
Any how... That was my first post.... I quite enjoyed it!!!
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Just looked again at FR's website.Lo and behold the entire format has been changed to make the booking process impossible without being made aware of the 4 forms of ID.
Maybe they are responding to customer concerns or maybe that fake legalese letter I sent them put the scare on them-who cares?--Result.
Maybe they are responding to customer concerns or maybe that fake legalese letter I sent them put the scare on them-who cares?--Result.
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Ryan Air: When is an ID not an ID?
Ryanair has sparked a row with the Government after refusing to allow British soldiers on standby for the Gulf to board flights using military ID. Cabinet ministers have threatened a Ministry of Defence boycott of the low-cost airline amid complaints that it is discriminating against servicemen. Although the airline accepts the new photo driving licence and the international student identity card with photo, it does not recognise the Armed Forces photo ID card.
Daily Telegraph
Date: Monday 10. February 2003
Page: 8
Daily Telegraph
Date: Monday 10. February 2003
Page: 8
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Stupid inflexible people should not be employed by airlines in jobs where they come into contact with the public. Whatever happened in this country that stopped people using their common sense to solve problems. Must say the attitude of Ryanair to such problems sucks - low cost should not equal low grade staff.
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What a bunch of moaners! The Ryanair website makes it perfectly clear what is and is not accepted as Photo ID for their flights:
The only valid forms of photo-id accepted on domestic UK flights and Ireland-UK routes are a passport, driving licence with photo, international student identity card with photo, or national identity card with photo. (National Identity cards are accepted only when issued by a Schengen country, ie. Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Belgium, Iceland, Luxembourg, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece Austria, Denmark, Finland and Sweden).
Failure to present such valid proof of identity matching the names on your reservation will result in you being refused check-in without refund.
Sounds pretty simple to me, if people can't understand the above then more fool them, why should servicemen get special treatment for their stupidity?
As for the MoD boycotting FR, well I'm sure O'Leary is quaking in his boots
Don't worry, he won't miss them.
The only valid forms of photo-id accepted on domestic UK flights and Ireland-UK routes are a passport, driving licence with photo, international student identity card with photo, or national identity card with photo. (National Identity cards are accepted only when issued by a Schengen country, ie. Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Belgium, Iceland, Luxembourg, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece Austria, Denmark, Finland and Sweden).
Failure to present such valid proof of identity matching the names on your reservation will result in you being refused check-in without refund.
Sounds pretty simple to me, if people can't understand the above then more fool them, why should servicemen get special treatment for their stupidity?
As for the MoD boycotting FR, well I'm sure O'Leary is quaking in his boots
Don't worry, he won't miss them.
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Good to see no one is getting any special privelages. Members of the Armed forces are not stupid - if they book a flight with Ryanair they must abide by Ryanair rules & regulations; if they don't want to play it by the book, they can fly with someone else.
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What is perfectly clear is that Ryanair have chosen to allow the use of student ID cards but not service IDs. This shows a distinct lack of common sense.
It is also clear from previous threads that what is perfectly clear on a website might well not be seen by the traveller who may have had his or her ticket purchased by a third party.
Security is a state of mind and the application of common sense in dealing with your customers should be encouraged.
It is also clear from previous threads that what is perfectly clear on a website might well not be seen by the traveller who may have had his or her ticket purchased by a third party.
Security is a state of mind and the application of common sense in dealing with your customers should be encouraged.
Shining Example, apparently...
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This topic was discussed recently:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=76934
Soddim, I agree that frontline staff should be flexible towards customers. However, this CAN'T extend to security. Can you imagine what could happen if checkin staff had discretion over what constitutes legitimate ID? An airline needs to have a rigid policy. Whatever you think of Ryanair's, their staff obeyed it to the letter and were absolutely right.
FR's rules are clearly stated on their website. Acceptance is a condition of purchase. If third parties are involved, the onus is on them to communicate conditions to travellers. Of course, few of us are so organised in practice, which is exactly why cases like this occur.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=76934
Soddim, I agree that frontline staff should be flexible towards customers. However, this CAN'T extend to security. Can you imagine what could happen if checkin staff had discretion over what constitutes legitimate ID? An airline needs to have a rigid policy. Whatever you think of Ryanair's, their staff obeyed it to the letter and were absolutely right.
FR's rules are clearly stated on their website. Acceptance is a condition of purchase. If third parties are involved, the onus is on them to communicate conditions to travellers. Of course, few of us are so organised in practice, which is exactly why cases like this occur.
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The root of the matter is, surely, what is the purpose of applying an identity check to passengers? As the procedure is in place to enhance security, then the integrity of the identity document presented should be the essential criterion. In this respect, a military ID card is a government provided document and so has a high level of security credibility.
On a recent flight LGW-EDI with easyJet I offered a CIS4(P) which is an Inland Revenue Registration Card (with photo). This was accepted without difficulty.
Ryanair should rethink this one, although the demeaning reference to "Joe Punter" in the spokesperson's response to the "Telegraph" makes me wonder if they have ever heard of Public Relations.
Confundemus
On a recent flight LGW-EDI with easyJet I offered a CIS4(P) which is an Inland Revenue Registration Card (with photo). This was accepted without difficulty.
Ryanair should rethink this one, although the demeaning reference to "Joe Punter" in the spokesperson's response to the "Telegraph" makes me wonder if they have ever heard of Public Relations.
Confundemus
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I agree that Ryanair's types of acceptable ID are limiting.....and should perhaps be widened to include UK Military ID's, UK airport airside passes (which sparked the previous thread on this subject), and perhaps a couple more.
However, they do have a clear and unambiguous policy, which can easily be communicated to all check-in staff, without risk of confusion, to ensure a consistent approach.
Sure, the check-in agent could have let it pass.....then what about the boarding gate.......and the return trip. At least by being consistent on this, Ryanair are avoiding the hassle of "....but it was okay on the outbound sector, so now you've got to get me home".
However, they do have a clear and unambiguous policy, which can easily be communicated to all check-in staff, without risk of confusion, to ensure a consistent approach.
Sure, the check-in agent could have let it pass.....then what about the boarding gate.......and the return trip. At least by being consistent on this, Ryanair are avoiding the hassle of "....but it was okay on the outbound sector, so now you've got to get me home".
Non Acceptance of Military IDs etc
Is there anything to reccomend this particular carrier, apart from the fact they appear to be very cheap!! Remember, you do not have to travel with them as I most certainly do not.
On the overall question of security, the strongest point is at the weakest link. So can someone from higher authority tell me why, Police, Customs, Immigration, and Security personnel themselves at most UK airports are NOT liable to the the normal security checks and procedures. Unless everbody passing through to airside is not checked, surely the whole system falls down and is then a waste of everybody'd time
On the overall question of security, the strongest point is at the weakest link. So can someone from higher authority tell me why, Police, Customs, Immigration, and Security personnel themselves at most UK airports are NOT liable to the the normal security checks and procedures. Unless everbody passing through to airside is not checked, surely the whole system falls down and is then a waste of everybody'd time