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Citi Express Base Closures

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Citi Express Base Closures

Old 20th Nov 2002, 20:36
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Regarding base closures its about time that the management realise they cannot keep ****ing about with peoples life. If they know something and have decided something then will they please just tell the staff (the ones that actually matter and who make the company what it is).

I cannot believe that after such investment at NCL that they are considering closing the base. Equally so for the other 'rumoured' base closures - PLH, LBA and EDI.

And Ryanair at NCL - never in a million years!
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 13:21
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Well with all these rumours around concerning base closures, surely this may mean redundancies. If so,and with the word around that BA mainline will be recruiting next year, would this mean mainline taking some of our pilots on, as we did with their cadets last year thus saving them from the dole. I don't think so, but it will just go to show what a dumping ground BACX is for our Big Brother.
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 15:36
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The argument that the RJ fleet are mainline aircraft doesn't really wash. They are due to be transferred to the BACX AOC very shortly, and at that point, we should be allowed to operate them as WE see fit and with the crews that WE employ. If BACC fight to have them kept as mainline, then so be it, but let none of their expenses be attributed to our accounts!
So therefore the argument follows that ex CFE pilots aren't mainline pilots must follow.... Ummm, don't think so. Accept your point about the economics, but remember we all work for BA, ok under different names but the melting pot is still the same. Where the money comes from isn't relevant. That BA as a group makes a profit is essential.
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 16:14
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Cake and eat it

Right this is getting way out of hand on all sides.
Firstly it seems to be a one way street, with mainline getting more out this than us at BACX.
If it is a BACX aircraft then you should be on BACX t & Cs and no
argument. If you are on mainline A/C then it should be Mainline T& Cs. Now what seems to be happening is that mainline want it all their way, I say no to that!
As stated already the RJs will BACX A/C so if mainline want a slice of the cake your going to have to put a black uniform on and muck in, if not go bid for your 777 Gin palace down at Wally World.
Now at the moment you guys want our jets but can we have yours, the words NO WAY i hear!! I would say that is unfair!!
Now we have trained up your F/Os and helped you guys out so I think its only fair that you guys help us out in times of need, like if we have any more base closures which seems that this will eventually happen.
I think that BALPA on both sides of the table should get a grip of this and dump scope and come up with a fair two way kind of deal that keeps everyone happy, as after all we fly with the same corporate logos and all contribute to the same money pot!!
Come on BALPA lets get some closure on this deadlock.
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 19:46
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THE RJ'S ARE NOT BACX'S AIRCRAFT. THEY ARE MAINLINE. WHICH BIT OF THIS STATEMENT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 20:39
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I think you'll find that the RJ's belong to British Airways Plc.

However they will be operated on the BACX AOC and operated to BACX's SOP's.
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 21:13
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Smile RJs Rather than J41s

What started as a post speculating on the closure of bases and the disposal of the J41s, appears to have deteriorated into a very sad & heated debate over the RJs! I am too saddened to comment.
However, going back to the original thread, I have decided that the specualtion is just that and in fact, there will be no closures and the J41 will remain with BA Plc until the leases expire in 2007.
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Old 21st Nov 2002, 22:16
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its funny . i left BACX just as BA were taking it over and i was told that i was stupid to leave because everyone would be flying around in Airbus on BA terms and conditions etc etc but all that seems to have happened is that several routes have been axed , many people have been moved to bases they dont want to be at and everyone seems to be at each others throat.

very sad as i really enjoyed my time there working for a basically happy outfit.

Last edited by stalling attitude; 21st Nov 2002 at 23:42.
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Old 22nd Nov 2002, 10:29
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Spot on comment SA.

The magic BA formula (sorry...there isn't one of course) has trashed two perfectly good companies with its heady potion of incompetence, stupidity, myopia and self interest.

I am beginning to think that the only way ahead is to break the company up and create some smaller focussed units serving their indivdual regions with a healthy dose of independen t management.

The root of the problem is that BA are trying to play a national game with what is in essence a number of small regional airlines.

Best thing that could happen is for us to be bought out and broken up................seriously we are presently on a one way ticket to nowhere.

Its got to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better I am afraid.

The only consolation is that six months in this industry is about six years in any other so a lot could happen in a very short time............
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 09:21
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Like Stalling Attitude I too left BRAL at MAN just when the BA takeover was announced. And I too was told how good this was, that I was crazy to leave, promises of flying larger aircraft etc. I didn't actually think twice about it though because I couldn't deal with another day with those ridiculous management coneheads on the IOM.

I now happily work for an outfit that is making many millions at BA's expense. I know BA are back in the black but not nearly by as much as they would have been. Until I read this thread I didn't feel very good about it. But with the uncompromising, assuming and arrogant attitudes expressed by some of the mainline guys on this thread, well, now I don't feel so bad at all.

Best of luck to all the troops at BACX, and especially those guys I knew in BRAL at MAN.
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 17:00
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Most of the dogmatic stuff written here comes from people who would be much less courageous in an eyeball to eyeball conversation.Wind your necks in a little and have more respect for your fellow professionals.
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 18:07
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Thumbs down

BlueUpGood,

its people with your kind of attitude that just make this entire situation worst.

Keep your bloody RJ.s and fly them yourself if you feel that passionate about them.
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 18:08
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A few of us at BACX pretty much echo what SA and Kite have said.Quite a few of us are just too pi@*ed off with the whole thing now.Base Closures,Scope,RJ's,J41's.
The management don't really realise how many of their pilots are actively looking for other employment at the minute and it's only that the current job market is not as thriving as it should be that they are still there.But take it from me that as soon as it picks up, we'll be gone.
We constantly hear "Stick with us,It's gonna be ok".
All Bol*@cks.
Bral/Manx was a great company when i joined(as i'm sure Brymon was)but on the front line it just seems worse everyday now.Morale?Mega low!!
There's only so much "Good Will" that we can put up with.

But that's probobly what they want,anyway!!
Or am i just cynical?
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 20:19
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FL245

With respect, thats all we want to do.. just as you would want to continue flying your Jetstreams, or Dash's or Sonic Cruisers if you had them!

What really ticks me off is the assumption expressed time and time again that it's ok to steal a fleet off mainline BA pilots, cos there all overpaid and underworked arent they?!

At the end of the day, they expansion of BACX is directly at the expense of my colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX.

Your colleagues argue that you deserve it because your more cost efficient and work your butts off for peanuts. Well, if your happy perpetuating that then feel free, but don't do it AND steal my colleagues job, and force them to operate from a base 150 miles away.

Whilst you may be dreaming of expansion, we are praying for our respective fleets not to be given to XYZ Airlines, and the RJ's have become the line in the sand for us.

All we want is to keep our work, and have a secure future, just as you want to keep your bases and the jobs there.


ps.. I have nothing personally to gain from all this.
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Old 23rd Nov 2002, 21:07
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Heard from a pretty reliable source that the J41's are off to another BA franchise in Jan03. Anyone care to comment on who that might be ?????
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Old 24th Nov 2002, 10:29
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BlueUpGood,

Well we do have sonic cruisers of the Brazilian variety!

Mainline pilots at BHX and MAN were offered the RJ's, did they want them? NO. I spoke to a mainline skipper in GLA a week ago who is moving to LHR, from BHX, he was also offered the RJ and said no, so how can he grumble about a move to LHR. So this chap was offered a chance to stay at his 'home' in BHX but said NO, so these chaps dont want to fly the RJ and stay at home, they have chosen to move to LHR/LGW



For your colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX, am I not right in the fact that these pilots were seconded to BAR and therefore the company has the right to call them back to mainline at any time?


BlueUpGood, if you asked most of my colleagues about the RJ, they could not give a toss about it. What we will not have is a Scope clause which disadvantages BACX pilots,

You have also got to remember that you and all you colleagues, do no own BA, you merely work for them, so whatever decisions they take about the RJ are for the people who run the company, not the pilots.

As for stealing the Cityflyer fleet, sorry I mean mainline, well the RJ's arriving at MAN and BHX, irrelevant of who crews them has put an end to our company considering the Embraer 170 or similar.

As for our salaries, yes we are paid less than you, our terms and conditions are no way near as good, allowances and duty pay are not at the same level, but does that make us second class to BA mainline??? Donít forget BlueUpGood you are a person no different to I, so donít look down your nose at me or my colleagues


As for the expansion of BACX, well if we are able to operate a route more effectively then of course board level with BA will evaluate the possibility of handing the route to BACX, we are owned by the same parent company. But you have got to ask yourself why are we more effective? I think thatís the question a lot of BA mainline people donít want to answer as they sit back and count allowances and duty earnings.

Nav Armed, you are right, its simply the lack of jobs elsewhere in the market place keeping a lot of us in BACX, like you old boy once the thing picks up I am gone !!!

the flying scot, I am surprised that you dont know !


Regards

FL245
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Old 24th Nov 2002, 19:45
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Well I've tried to stay out of this debate but I feel that a few points of FL245s last post require some elaboration.


Mainline pilots at BHX and MAN were offered the RJ's, did they want them? NO.

Given that the offer consisted of flying them as part of BACX, on vastly inferior terms and conditions, and with other pilots from BACX, a number of whom have made quite clear their intense dislike of BA pilots on this forum, then who could blame them? Had they been offered the RJ on their existing terms within BA then the uptake would have been very different.


For your colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX, am I not right in the fact that these pilots were seconded to BAR and therefore the company has the right to call them back to mainline at any time?


No. Most crew had actively bid to be based at BHX or MAN, the company could not recall them to LHR without closing the bases completely. Many have never been based in London.

As for stealing the Cityflyer fleet, sorry I mean mainline, well the RJ's arriving at MAN and BHX, irrelevant of who crews them has put an end to our company considering the Embraer 170 or similar

On which routes were the Embraer 170s to operate. If you're increasing capacity on your own routes then fine, but if the plan is to edge BAR aircraft of their routes then is it any wonder people are narked?

As for the expansion of BACX, well if we are able to operate a route more effectively then of course board level with BA will evaluate the possibility of handing the route to BACX, we are owned by the same parent company. But you have got to ask yourself why are we more effective? I think thatís the question a lot of BA mainline people donít want to answer as they sit back and count allowances and duty earnings.

I wondered when then old chestnut of 'we're cheaper so we're better' would appear. I guess it must be those pittance wages easyjet are paying that make them so profitable. I would actually question whether your operation at BHX and MAN is more effective than the old BAR operation. Sure you can serve routes that we couldn't on the larger equipment, but one need only look at the shambles of an attempt at the BHX-BRU route to see your fortunes have been decidely mixed (for those not familiar, the route was switched from 2xA319 daily to 5xEmb145 daily but with such an appalling cancellation history that we lost slots. All BRU flights have now been handed over to SN on a codeshare). The reliability of the 145s and the 146s has been lamentable with hundreds of cancellations, five figure bills for wet-leasing Titan aircraft on a weekly basis, valuable customers leaving in droves and passenger satisfaction going through the floor, particularly now the RJ is arriving at BHX. Its no good being cheaper if you haven't got any passengers to fly and the way the regional operation is going that may be the case sooner than we all expect.
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Old 24th Nov 2002, 20:14
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I have a terrible premonition:
BACX gets rid of all the J41s to Eastern, and since we now do not have the aircraft to operate those routes Eastern gets the franchise to operate them on our behalf, which is of course profitable since they don't have the overheads associated with the absorption of BAR. BACX becomes more and more top heavy and eventually management decides that a regional airline with a lower cost base is required, so BA buy Eastern (don't fight it guys, resistance is futile you will be assimilated). Rebranding consultants are hired who mastermind its re-launch as British Airways Citiexpress Lite (the cunning marketing strategy of mis-spelling of "Lite" has got to be worth several mill of anybody's money). Those of us who work for BACX now worry about these appalling turboprop oiks (Lord knows, some of them probably haven't been to public school) taking our routes and eroding our terms and conditions, so we insist on a scope clause ring fencing MAN and BHX, and limiting BACX Lite to sub 30 seat turboprops unless our captains fly them. (though in return any CX Lite captain who has scored straight "A"s in his last 20 sim checks, and has over 40 years continuous service would be allowed the supreme honour of joining the bottom of our seniority list.) This makes BACX Lite unprofitable.

Disclaimer: The above scenario is a work of fiction, and any resemblance to actual events is entirely coincidental.


British Airways Citiexpress ~ May the farce be with you !
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Old 24th Nov 2002, 20:57
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Given that the offer consisted of flying them as part of BACX, on vastly inferior terms and conditions, and with other pilots from BACX

Well there we go, the BA Mainline pilot is above us all. Listen Hand Solo, you are no different from the rest of us old boy.

Its not too many years ago when the RJ was not even anything to do with mainline. I did not see you all rushing to apply to CityFlyer a few years ago?

I have spoken to some of your colleagues who have said that they would not fly the RJ, even to stay at their base MAN/BHX. If thatís their choice then they have no recourse and should not grumble at moving down the M6.

Brymon / BRAL operated BA Franchise routes for a number of years, so I am not sure which routes you refer to when you say 'your own routes', all these routes are now owned by BA.

BRU, you may have a fair point about BHX/BRU, but I can tell you I came from BRU to LHR on a 757 recently, and there were more cabin crew than PAX, so have a think about that.

The main point in this discussion is not the RJ's its BA decision to pull the Airbus and 737 from BHX / MAN. The redeployment of the RJ to these bases is another issue and the T & C's well thatís an issue you need to take with your employer.

Another main issue here is SCOPE, and there is no way I would accept that on the conditions that were proposed. I can honestly say from the crews in BACX that I have spoken to, it would be simpler to let mainline crew fly the RJ on your current T & C's.

Hand Solo, people within BACX are not evil, twisted nor trying to steal anyoneís job. I simply operate the aircraft, if my company decided that we are now doing a route that used to be a BAR route, then so be it. That decision does not rest with you or I as to what routes we decide to operate.

As for operating costs, again if it can be done cheaper on a different aircraft, then as a pure cost cutting exercise I would imagine thats the way it will be.

Good luck
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Old 24th Nov 2002, 21:40
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FL245

Lets get one thing clear. NEVER did I state, or do I believe a BA pilot is any better or more worthy than any other pilot.

I would give my eye teeth to work for a small friendly company.

But, lets get one thing ABSOLUTELY clear. BA the company thrives on 'divide and conquer'. FACT. They are trying to do it between BA and BACX now, and your turn will come within BACX.

TRUST ME.

BA terms & conditions may be a cheap target from outside, but when BA DEP''s are hired on good T&C's, it's one less pilot for other airlines to hire. Supply & demand dictates higher pay must be offered to compete.

You may resent BA T&C's, but like it or not, there always has to be a 'percieved' market leader, and BA happens to be it. In reality, it isn't necessarily so. But, the highest pay, and best T&C's dictate the market rates.

When the BA council draw a line, the whole pilot market benefits eventually. You may be ticked off that it's not your company that has the clout, but BA is the biggest employer, and hence has the biggest influence on the market.

Believe me, there are hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in BA who would love to share the 'Dunquerk' spirit and friendliness of smaller (worse paid) airlines, but giving our kids a better future or whatever, means we are slaves to Big Airways. But, we don't like it.

As a bloke who flew a 747-400 and was bored sh*&less after 4 sectors ( and 1 landing) I would love to fly a J41. BUT it must be for enough money to do my family justice.

Lets all stand together and benefit together.

BlueUpGood
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