Aircraft off the Runway at SXL
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Two questions:
1. Let's set aside [and it's quite a bit to set aside] the "shouldn't make them do it anyway" and get to the technical - what is the time and cost to the crews from F-27 to F-50? I know different engines and presumably well different flight deck, but...
2. doesn't this have the same ring as RE's move from S360 to ATR-42? Have ECY merely been taking lessons from the competition?
The punters salivating at ECY's difficulties, not least that even the lads south of the Med won't take a salty 27, should recall how RE held the Govt to ransom over the PSOs some time back - at least there is some competition for the taxpayer's Euro!
1. Let's set aside [and it's quite a bit to set aside] the "shouldn't make them do it anyway" and get to the technical - what is the time and cost to the crews from F-27 to F-50? I know different engines and presumably well different flight deck, but...
2. doesn't this have the same ring as RE's move from S360 to ATR-42? Have ECY merely been taking lessons from the competition?
The punters salivating at ECY's difficulties, not least that even the lads south of the Med won't take a salty 27, should recall how RE held the Govt to ransom over the PSOs some time back - at least there is some competition for the taxpayer's Euro!
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If the EC guys refuse to cough up for the differences course are there any current F50 drivers kicking their heels? Probably not.
There might be some other F27 drivers interested in coughing up I spose...scabs in other words, if you had an official dispute and were part of a union.
You are all in IALPA of course...aren't you???
Of course...
NOT.
There might be some other F27 drivers interested in coughing up I spose...scabs in other words, if you had an official dispute and were part of a union.
You are all in IALPA of course...aren't you???
Of course...
NOT.
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To those of you who work in operations at Eurodisney's head office in Luton I apologise for not mentioning you in my previous postings. I have discussed the excellent cabin crew that EC has before, & to all those who were with the company from the outset sorry, once again, for ignoring you. You do all indeed work hours that are probably illegal under UK legislation, but you keep on doing it. Captain Anchovy, you have not been asked to lay out your own money to keep your job. How would you feel if just before christmas you were laid off & then told that to keep your employment you had to pay more than half of your annual salary for reduced terms & conditions when you'd done it. Not too pleased, I'll bet?
Everyone can see that you are also in an extremely vulnerable situation & that if certain things progress for Euroceltic the way the lousy management want them to, you will also all be given the push in due course. You will all be surplus to requirements.
What's that I hear you cry? "We've all been told that our jobs are safe." So were the pilots for the past year & look at what has just happened to those poor guys.
MarkD, yes it does indeed seem like a copy of what happened at Aer Aran. At least Aer Aran didn't expect the pilots to cough up for their own type training, & no, it is not just difference training. It is a completely separate type.
I repeat: the pilots have been lied to for the past year & have just simply been strung along. There has been total exploitation by this company of the job shortage situation for all staff. The best thing that you can do guys & gals is to leave as JB007 says. I mean everyone, by the way, not just the flight crew.
Everyone can see that you are also in an extremely vulnerable situation & that if certain things progress for Euroceltic the way the lousy management want them to, you will also all be given the push in due course. You will all be surplus to requirements.
What's that I hear you cry? "We've all been told that our jobs are safe." So were the pilots for the past year & look at what has just happened to those poor guys.
MarkD, yes it does indeed seem like a copy of what happened at Aer Aran. At least Aer Aran didn't expect the pilots to cough up for their own type training, & no, it is not just difference training. It is a completely separate type.
I repeat: the pilots have been lied to for the past year & have just simply been strung along. There has been total exploitation by this company of the job shortage situation for all staff. The best thing that you can do guys & gals is to leave as JB007 says. I mean everyone, by the way, not just the flight crew.
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Hey Harry Potter,
Take a dignity pil and stop eating bags of lemons!
Whats happened isn't great but let's hope the rest of the company keeps going.
Captain Anchovy, always thought you were fishy, Get back in your tank!
Things may well change again, in any event it's time to get twisted and have a proper debate away from this public forum, we've suffered enough.
straight from the hip... Gusset Style
Take a dignity pil and stop eating bags of lemons!
Whats happened isn't great but let's hope the rest of the company keeps going.
Captain Anchovy, always thought you were fishy, Get back in your tank!
Things may well change again, in any event it's time to get twisted and have a proper debate away from this public forum, we've suffered enough.
straight from the hip... Gusset Style
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Well -- unfortunately and predictably, I understand that's it for the F27 people! I did not hear anything about option to 'buy' F50 rating - just that F27 pilots are now redundant - 'cos that's what it is. I would strongly advise anybody in BALPA, or other organisation, to seek advice since, under UK law, it is not quite as easy for ECY to 'shed' the problem - from the little that I have heard, the F27 people have a very good chance of a successful Industrial Tribunal. I do not think that 'buying' a rating would quite qualify as being offerred redeployment within the company. It's up to you people, of course, but you do not have to accept three month's pay and roll over you know. If you are not in BALPA or similar you can still get advice and you may find a way of getting your costs covered. I know as a youngster it is easier to ' just accept it ' - but you don't have to. I would predict that if this is a 'typical' stroke by ECY, the 'survivors' will also be hit in their turn, so don't get complacent - your turn next, unless somebody has the courage to take a stand. Order your thoughts, make a detailed record of exactly what has happened, how you were told, etc., and seek advice. You will be concerned about 'blotting your copy-book' and any action being held against you by prospective future employers - I can understand that. However, it doesn't quite work like that. In times of full employment, this would not happen. Jobs are short and all the loopholes are being used to bring in 'cheap labour' by air transport operators who are not really that any more. I suspect that the way in which this has been done no way satisfies the requirements of the law - because this sort of operator is ignorant of the law, or is so arrogant that they think they are beyond it and that you are 'captive' and won't dare 'rock the boat'. I could go on a bit, but won't. It's up to you. If you have been arbitrarily 'flung out' on minimum contractual terms and no correct process has been followed - you need advice - get it!
PS: You will have to have been employed for a full 12 months to have any chance of success at Tribunal - you also need to carefully review your contract of employment - remeber that the 'contract' does not necessarily have to be written - some contractual 'terms and conditions of employment' may well be established by what your 'employer' has told you, or written to you. There may be a repudiation here - if that is the case you have a 'reasonable' period in which to 'accept' the repudiation, or otherwise. What that means is do not 'just go along with something' if you are unhappy with it - like paying for a new rating - register your non-acceptance of what has been proposed - but, PLEASE seek advice - unless you happen to be an IR law specialist, you will not find your way through it. There are so many specialists out ther who can advise and guide you - however, BALPA is the best at that - so, if you intend to carry on in this increasingly unsavioury business - join BALPA - NOW!
PS: You will have to have been employed for a full 12 months to have any chance of success at Tribunal - you also need to carefully review your contract of employment - remeber that the 'contract' does not necessarily have to be written - some contractual 'terms and conditions of employment' may well be established by what your 'employer' has told you, or written to you. There may be a repudiation here - if that is the case you have a 'reasonable' period in which to 'accept' the repudiation, or otherwise. What that means is do not 'just go along with something' if you are unhappy with it - like paying for a new rating - register your non-acceptance of what has been proposed - but, PLEASE seek advice - unless you happen to be an IR law specialist, you will not find your way through it. There are so many specialists out ther who can advise and guide you - however, BALPA is the best at that - so, if you intend to carry on in this increasingly unsavioury business - join BALPA - NOW!
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Immelman has a point here, besides which, how easy would it be for you guys to work in Denmark? Don't think so!
News travels at Dublin and you may find you have more support than you think in this case. Someone has to handle the aircraft here.... eventually, someone has to clear them to taxi... eventually.
What were the management thinking off when they pulled this stroke; For the sake of a few quid, how much goodwill will be lost?
Contractors are'nt cheap in the long run, and having come so far with this project why has the CEO lost faith at the last minute.
No one likes an aviation dispute, but I feel one on it's way.
Cheer them up Gusset!
News travels at Dublin and you may find you have more support than you think in this case. Someone has to handle the aircraft here.... eventually, someone has to clear them to taxi... eventually.
What were the management thinking off when they pulled this stroke; For the sake of a few quid, how much goodwill will be lost?
Contractors are'nt cheap in the long run, and having come so far with this project why has the CEO lost faith at the last minute.
No one likes an aviation dispute, but I feel one on it's way.
Cheer them up Gusset!
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Maybe the owners of this nasty little outfit should have taken , "a dignity pill," Kirsty's knickers! One thing is for sure, it's a bitter bloody pill for the flight crew to have to swallow.
Allow me to enlighten you as to what moral people now run this airline: they were openly stating that they were pleased that the incident had occured at SXL because it had brought maximum publicity to this outfit. "No such thing as bad publicity," they claimed. They were also boasting of a windfall of cash because of the insurance claim on the drowned F27!
Please don't talk to me about dignity.
Allow me to enlighten you as to what moral people now run this airline: they were openly stating that they were pleased that the incident had occured at SXL because it had brought maximum publicity to this outfit. "No such thing as bad publicity," they claimed. They were also boasting of a windfall of cash because of the insurance claim on the drowned F27!
Please don't talk to me about dignity.
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Behave Potter,
You may want to edit that.. I'm not being judgemental either, but this is bad press by any standards.
Take it you got out of bed and stepped into the chamber pot!
Understand BALPA may be giving some advice.
You may want to edit that.. I'm not being judgemental either, but this is bad press by any standards.
Take it you got out of bed and stepped into the chamber pot!
Understand BALPA may be giving some advice.
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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I know Potter's postings are about as negative as they come but he's correct in everything he's saying. There is alot going on behind the scenes and I would say to all those in Ops and others at Halcyon House, do not wait to see what happends - start looking for another job!
I also hope every single F27 flight deck member takes Immelman's advice...surely they cannot get away with this..?
I also hope every single F27 flight deck member takes Immelman's advice...surely they cannot get away with this..?
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Dirk's Drawers, we live in a country of free speech.
No I do not want to edit my previous post.
I am sorry that my posts are all negative at the moment JB007 but there are not many positives in this situation for the flight crew. No Captain Anchovy, I am not on Eurodisney's payroll anymore thankfully, but I have helped this airline in the past more than you'll ever know.
Allow me to enlighten you as to how this company has operated in recent times:
The pilots were all being told, right up to last week, that their jobs were safe, that for all of their loyalty & hard work they would be rewarded. This week they all got a letter stating that they were all having their contracts terminated. No consultation, no one on one with management, nothing. They were told that they would be trained onto the F50 when the time came. They are now being replaced by Scandanavian pilots who will hopefully cost this company far more in the long term. Did this airline inform the CAA that it was laying off it's entire F27 crew? No it did not. You now have a UK airline operating within Ireland & Britain without a single pilot of those two countries flying the aircraft for them. Where the hell else in Europe would you find that happening.
This apalling airline has taken the worst concepts of flagging out, paying for ratings & bonding agreements & put them all into one melting pot to produce the most inferior management system operating in Ireland or Britain. As I have said: you are far better out of it & all the very best of luck to you in your future careers. Don't let these bunch of w@#<£rs put you off.
No I do not want to edit my previous post.
I am sorry that my posts are all negative at the moment JB007 but there are not many positives in this situation for the flight crew. No Captain Anchovy, I am not on Eurodisney's payroll anymore thankfully, but I have helped this airline in the past more than you'll ever know.
Allow me to enlighten you as to how this company has operated in recent times:
The pilots were all being told, right up to last week, that their jobs were safe, that for all of their loyalty & hard work they would be rewarded. This week they all got a letter stating that they were all having their contracts terminated. No consultation, no one on one with management, nothing. They were told that they would be trained onto the F50 when the time came. They are now being replaced by Scandanavian pilots who will hopefully cost this company far more in the long term. Did this airline inform the CAA that it was laying off it's entire F27 crew? No it did not. You now have a UK airline operating within Ireland & Britain without a single pilot of those two countries flying the aircraft for them. Where the hell else in Europe would you find that happening.
This apalling airline has taken the worst concepts of flagging out, paying for ratings & bonding agreements & put them all into one melting pot to produce the most inferior management system operating in Ireland or Britain. As I have said: you are far better out of it & all the very best of luck to you in your future careers. Don't let these bunch of w@#<£rs put you off.
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Euroceltic
Its a pitty the Potter has not posted all the facts (even though he knows them) about the Luton and the Sligo Insident.
Its about time To put the record straight,
1, the main cause of the insident at Luton was unsolicitored interference on the flight deck by a leprechaun who was sacked from the company and was lucky the matter was not taken further.
2, At Sligo the aircraft touched down at the normal touch down point at the correct speed in very adverse conditions.
3, The ground fine was selected and did not enguage was reselected and enguaged on the second attempt by which time more than half the usuable runway was used (runway length 1200m)
4, The wheels locked up and the aircraft slid from 2/3 of the way down the runway off the end in to the water which is about 50m from the end of the runway.
5, F27`s not going into ground fine is not an uncommon problem.(Coventry insident to name one)
6, the Potter is bitter because lack of promotion would any one promote such a loyal company man!!!!
Its about time To put the record straight,
1, the main cause of the insident at Luton was unsolicitored interference on the flight deck by a leprechaun who was sacked from the company and was lucky the matter was not taken further.
2, At Sligo the aircraft touched down at the normal touch down point at the correct speed in very adverse conditions.
3, The ground fine was selected and did not enguage was reselected and enguaged on the second attempt by which time more than half the usuable runway was used (runway length 1200m)
4, The wheels locked up and the aircraft slid from 2/3 of the way down the runway off the end in to the water which is about 50m from the end of the runway.
5, F27`s not going into ground fine is not an uncommon problem.(Coventry insident to name one)
6, the Potter is bitter because lack of promotion would any one promote such a loyal company man!!!!
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ThanksV810 - As I said in my post of 03 November, speculation over causes of accidents or incidents does nobody any favours - let's just wait for the result of the investigation! People's careers, livelihoods and licences, among other things, depend on that outcome. It is not acceptable to speculate, particularly since there are potential legal issues involved in doing so! As I said, there are many, many possible causes - often a combination of more than one. The data from the F27, however, is not likely to be that good - it may not show if, for example, the aircraft became airborne again, at selection , thus not selecting or that a microswitch was faulty or that anti-skid was inoperative. Who the hell knows ?- maybe not even those flying it - that is why professionals carry out those investigations, armed with the highest level of knowlege and experience/expertise - just wait for the report - and I would suggest it would be very unwise, and certainly unfair, for anybody to start advancing theories!
The issue that I believe, however, is pefectly reasonable to continue to debate is what has or has not happened to the F27 pilots, and anybody else affected by ECY's subsequent actions. Still, however, debate achieves little except bad feeling - it is for those souls affected to seek advice, as I posted recently. We may even harm their chances of a fair outcome if we continue to stir things up, don't you think?
The issue that I believe, however, is pefectly reasonable to continue to debate is what has or has not happened to the F27 pilots, and anybody else affected by ECY's subsequent actions. Still, however, debate achieves little except bad feeling - it is for those souls affected to seek advice, as I posted recently. We may even harm their chances of a fair outcome if we continue to stir things up, don't you think?
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Are we missing something here?
Should'nt the landing distance take into account the fact that reverse or in this case ground fine might not work,perhaps the brakes failed as well as the ground fine and the tyres!
At Coventry the aircraft only had flap 26 and landed at Vref plus 20knts, are we saying the SXL aircraft was in a similar configuration?
Immelman, what's getting airbourne at selection got to do with anything? I'm given to understand the F27 ground fine is not protected by weight on wheels switching.
I agree it is never productive to speculate about an accident, but it does seem from the timing that this one finished the F27 fleet operation.
At this time we should be thinking of the crews that have been laid off, if it happened as is posted here I do agree with Immelman on the legal bit.
Should'nt the landing distance take into account the fact that reverse or in this case ground fine might not work,perhaps the brakes failed as well as the ground fine and the tyres!
At Coventry the aircraft only had flap 26 and landed at Vref plus 20knts, are we saying the SXL aircraft was in a similar configuration?
Immelman, what's getting airbourne at selection got to do with anything? I'm given to understand the F27 ground fine is not protected by weight on wheels switching.
I agree it is never productive to speculate about an accident, but it does seem from the timing that this one finished the F27 fleet operation.
At this time we should be thinking of the crews that have been laid off, if it happened as is posted here I do agree with Immelman on the legal bit.
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You're right Avenger, this thread seems to have lost the plot a bit and turned into two different issues.
The Potter sounds a bit miffed to say the least, but if the crews have been dumped as he/she says I can understand that, but we can't debate the reasons why management may have done this simply because we don't know.
As for the SXL incident, there's a lot of speculation going on here, but not getting ground fine should not have caused the aircraft to go off the end or burst the tyres.
If you brake like hell on a wet runway, then the F27 antilock system won't save you, trick is to get it right.
As for V810's reasons for the Luton blow-outs, what a load of cobblers! Even if there was unsolicited input from another person, the aircraft commander should have considered going around, not landing two thirds down the runway.
Was it the same guy flying at SXL, if so thats bad luck, but lightning does strike twice.
Its easy for me to contemplate sitting here with the sun on my back, guess it's not so cosy at ECY HQ now.
The Potter sounds a bit miffed to say the least, but if the crews have been dumped as he/she says I can understand that, but we can't debate the reasons why management may have done this simply because we don't know.
As for the SXL incident, there's a lot of speculation going on here, but not getting ground fine should not have caused the aircraft to go off the end or burst the tyres.
If you brake like hell on a wet runway, then the F27 antilock system won't save you, trick is to get it right.
As for V810's reasons for the Luton blow-outs, what a load of cobblers! Even if there was unsolicited input from another person, the aircraft commander should have considered going around, not landing two thirds down the runway.
Was it the same guy flying at SXL, if so thats bad luck, but lightning does strike twice.
Its easy for me to contemplate sitting here with the sun on my back, guess it's not so cosy at ECY HQ now.
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The last two posts make my point for me - thanks. We all think we know what happened at CVT and at LTN and at SXL, and may well be right although you have both shown in a very few words, with respect, that you don't really know much about it - just about what the average line-pilot knows, and that is not a lot - just the basics - that's why test-standard engineers, highly experienced test-standard pilots and others carry out investigations. What I am saying is 'leave the causes to the experts' - the only debate that should be going on is 'have those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own been treated fairly/lawfully and do they have any recourse to justice/redress'?
As for flight safety, AAIB/Irish equivalent will report to CAA/Irish equivalent and they, in turn, will disseminate any facts/factors arising which may affect flight safety in the future. We won't see a CHIRP since it was an actual accident but there will be MORs. If there is an 'aircraft' problem as a causal factor - CAA will take steps ranging from immediate grounding of airframes, to issuing bulletins, directives, etc. This has not happened, so you can assume the causal factors were not 'design', for want of a better term - so we just have to wait for the result and any remedial mandates
Meantime, best concentrate on the apparent 'spin-off' - people losing jobs - even if we can do little to help, it would be good to show support. Some of those good folks were tucked up in bed, or whatever, when it happened, but they still lost their jobs - why?
As for flight safety, AAIB/Irish equivalent will report to CAA/Irish equivalent and they, in turn, will disseminate any facts/factors arising which may affect flight safety in the future. We won't see a CHIRP since it was an actual accident but there will be MORs. If there is an 'aircraft' problem as a causal factor - CAA will take steps ranging from immediate grounding of airframes, to issuing bulletins, directives, etc. This has not happened, so you can assume the causal factors were not 'design', for want of a better term - so we just have to wait for the result and any remedial mandates
Meantime, best concentrate on the apparent 'spin-off' - people losing jobs - even if we can do little to help, it would be good to show support. Some of those good folks were tucked up in bed, or whatever, when it happened, but they still lost their jobs - why?
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Have just finished Sun/Mon CFN-DUB and were offered the Waterford as well but couldn't spare the A/C (understand it was subsequently cancelled). We (Loganair) did the same last weekend and was wondering if anyone knows how long these routes would be sub-contracted out for? I know Newair are doing the routes during the week and don't know if we will continue to do them at weekends?
Good Luck to all whose jobs are in doubt, sounds dire.
Good Luck to all whose jobs are in doubt, sounds dire.
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Hello logibear, your guess is as good as ours, I would assume that had Newair been able to operate, then they would have got the route, no reflection on you guys.
It's a pity the crews did'nt get cross trained onto the F50, but looks like the company is paying the price of indecision now.
They seem intent on ditching any goodwill that's been built up over the past two years, which is a shame, just hope the rest of the people are ok in the long run.
PS I was a friend of FO Russell Dixon so would rather you guys do the work than johnny foreigner.
Regards, contemplating the captains log after a large curry.
It's a pity the crews did'nt get cross trained onto the F50, but looks like the company is paying the price of indecision now.
They seem intent on ditching any goodwill that's been built up over the past two years, which is a shame, just hope the rest of the people are ok in the long run.
PS I was a friend of FO Russell Dixon so would rather you guys do the work than johnny foreigner.
Regards, contemplating the captains log after a large curry.