BA's pay offer!
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Cabin Crew salaries
The figure getting banded around here are fantastic and the kind of a contract long since gone.
No one will earn this kind of money any more. As usual the minority of people make up for the majority of rumours.
CSD's will contuinue to earn a decnt wage - but do you not think these people set the tone for up to 18 crew memebers - get them motivated - and in turn get pax coming back for more? - Paying all our wages. I'm talking about the good ones here - not the one's who sit in the office watching DVD'S.
The company will do away with the payment system eventually and we will all be on hourly rate - Watch it happen! - it may take 10 or more years - BUT IT WILL HAPPEN!!!
No one will earn this kind of money any more. As usual the minority of people make up for the majority of rumours.
CSD's will contuinue to earn a decnt wage - but do you not think these people set the tone for up to 18 crew memebers - get them motivated - and in turn get pax coming back for more? - Paying all our wages. I'm talking about the good ones here - not the one's who sit in the office watching DVD'S.
The company will do away with the payment system eventually and we will all be on hourly rate - Watch it happen! - it may take 10 or more years - BUT IT WILL HAPPEN!!!
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Now Shadowpurser, I know it's right 'cos I see'd it wiv me own eyes! Me, an 11 year Classic pilot, almost the lowest paid in the room party in Harare, and we were passing around pay slips. That was 22 years ago, and it still lives with me. OK, Cabin Crew basics are lower now, but there is a whole raft of extra payments that very much changes the picture for Cabin Crew in BA. Perhaps we should move on to the cars crew park at Compass as an assessment of wealth. Now isn't the BA stewardess 'car' these days an SLK? I've seen more CSDs with monster C or E class Mercs than anything else. The married (or divorced) pilot car these days is a Fiesta!
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Notso
I don't understand?
If your prepared to push the company that employs you under for a 10% pay rise then you will end up with 10% of nothing.
Striking is the last resort of an ailing (no puns) union because it has lost it's power.You have all allowed your union to permit BA to erode you t & c for too long. I think you need to look to your union as to why it has allowed your salary to slip in relation to other airlines over the years and not to why BA has taken advantage of a weak union. They're your contributions your paying and it's you your union should be representing not the company. I suggest you make your union fight your battle and not allow them to send you like lambs to a strike slaughter.
I feel sorry that pilots in general feel that they must resort to this because of intransigence on both sides(unions and company), but if the cabin crew union over the last 10 years has supposedly been able to secure very good pay and conditions for it's members you are all going to have to ask yourselves where you should point the finger.
I don't understand?
If your prepared to push the company that employs you under for a 10% pay rise then you will end up with 10% of nothing.
Striking is the last resort of an ailing (no puns) union because it has lost it's power.You have all allowed your union to permit BA to erode you t & c for too long. I think you need to look to your union as to why it has allowed your salary to slip in relation to other airlines over the years and not to why BA has taken advantage of a weak union. They're your contributions your paying and it's you your union should be representing not the company. I suggest you make your union fight your battle and not allow them to send you like lambs to a strike slaughter.
I feel sorry that pilots in general feel that they must resort to this because of intransigence on both sides(unions and company), but if the cabin crew union over the last 10 years has supposedly been able to secure very good pay and conditions for it's members you are all going to have to ask yourselves where you should point the finger.
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What good does that do? I would say almost all the unions except BASSA and CC89 have been overwhelmed by Aylings forceful direction and imposed pay deals for the last 10 years. BALPA has had a GS (departed) who has also negotiated our settlements downwards! If you can tell me ONE advantage with castigating BALPA (which is only represented by my own colleagues), I'll owe you a beer. Otherwise, not a productive or sensible suggestion.
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Why wouldn't your current and past contracts include a 'cost of living allowance' that would index your wages to inflation? You should at least be in a position to keep up with increased living costs.
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Surely BALPA which you pay contributions to is there to represent your interests, if it isn't what are you paying it for.
If things are as bad as you say then the ONLY fault is with the union as most other areas, ie tug drivers, cabin crew, management by your account are walking off with sacks of money, maybe you ought to get BALPA to take a leaf out of BASSA and CC89's book.
If other airlines pilots have leapfrogged you in the pay and conditions terms whose fault is that.
The question to ask is have your conditions been eroded away by the company?, in which case I would imagine most of this was done with input from the unions, or have other airlines improved their conditions for their pilots to such an extent that you have been left behind, in which case maybe a bit of inter-airline communication in a bar one night may enlighten you to a few t&c's which are available.
Not so fantastic - you'd never see my payslip cos even wiv your own eyes my moneys my business and I'm not about to gloat or be gloated over by anyone.
If things are as bad as you say then the ONLY fault is with the union as most other areas, ie tug drivers, cabin crew, management by your account are walking off with sacks of money, maybe you ought to get BALPA to take a leaf out of BASSA and CC89's book.
If other airlines pilots have leapfrogged you in the pay and conditions terms whose fault is that.
The question to ask is have your conditions been eroded away by the company?, in which case I would imagine most of this was done with input from the unions, or have other airlines improved their conditions for their pilots to such an extent that you have been left behind, in which case maybe a bit of inter-airline communication in a bar one night may enlighten you to a few t&c's which are available.
Not so fantastic - you'd never see my payslip cos even wiv your own eyes my moneys my business and I'm not about to gloat or be gloated over by anyone.
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Why all the begruddgery - a nasty and unhelpful trait of pilots it seems. 
We (pilots) should all be supporting BA's pilots in attempts to maximize their lot. The more their pay goes up the more ours does a bit down the line. BALPA will have sound advisors and if there is a legitimate and sustainable claim it will be made. If and only if the pilots stand shoulder to shoulder will it be won.
Compare and contrast Cathay and its 49ers
and Aer Lingus and their successful, shoulder to shoulder action
.
If we (thats pilots again) had the sense to stand together, both within our own companies and across companies then we would all improve our collective lot.
Why cant we cover each others backs like mangers do
We (pilots) should all be supporting BA's pilots in attempts to maximize their lot. The more their pay goes up the more ours does a bit down the line. BALPA will have sound advisors and if there is a legitimate and sustainable claim it will be made. If and only if the pilots stand shoulder to shoulder will it be won.
Compare and contrast Cathay and its 49ers
and Aer Lingus and their successful, shoulder to shoulder action. If we (thats pilots again) had the sense to stand together, both within our own companies and across companies then we would all improve our collective lot.
Why cant we cover each others backs like mangers do
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Well said Shadowpurser and to you Constant Phase you are talking out of your ill informed ar*s old boy!!.
CAT payments nearly right,approx £50/£40/£30 CSD/PSR/MAIN CREW.
These payments are made due to a reduced turn round time and were asked for by BA management as it SAVES BA money.
£35K Basic plus £20K allowances I don't know your source but you are very wrong.
I am a CSD on Euro and total for the year £31K(all in)!!,and as Shadow Purser points out it's us that motivates the crew when the going gets tough and get them out to play and we take a lot of sh*t from our punters who are getting less and less every flight,I don't mind this because it's my job and in my humble opinion the best job around.
Please keep your mind on your issues,argue on your own merits and don't bring other areas into it to justify your claim i.e. cabin crew pay!!,I don't think it will wash with the majority of people who read this board
As for BA flight crew colleagues I wish them every success for their pay claim, which is a just one to bring them on a par with their counterparts within Europe LH/AF/KL/IB etc.
Good luck to them all,they have my full support.
NJR.
Bacardi and Coke loads of ice and lemon.
PS Your figures are right for the TLV but that was a Union agreement.
PPS
Would you like me to disclose your money on a public forum?,NO.....so I won't because I'm professional and your earnings are nothing to do with me and mine should not be to you!!!!.
CAT payments nearly right,approx £50/£40/£30 CSD/PSR/MAIN CREW.
These payments are made due to a reduced turn round time and were asked for by BA management as it SAVES BA money.
£35K Basic plus £20K allowances I don't know your source but you are very wrong.
I am a CSD on Euro and total for the year £31K(all in)!!,and as Shadow Purser points out it's us that motivates the crew when the going gets tough and get them out to play and we take a lot of sh*t from our punters who are getting less and less every flight,I don't mind this because it's my job and in my humble opinion the best job around.
Please keep your mind on your issues,argue on your own merits and don't bring other areas into it to justify your claim i.e. cabin crew pay!!,I don't think it will wash with the majority of people who read this board
As for BA flight crew colleagues I wish them every success for their pay claim, which is a just one to bring them on a par with their counterparts within Europe LH/AF/KL/IB etc.
Good luck to them all,they have my full support.
NJR.
Bacardi and Coke loads of ice and lemon.
PS Your figures are right for the TLV but that was a Union agreement.
PPS
Would you like me to disclose your money on a public forum?,NO.....so I won't because I'm professional and your earnings are nothing to do with me and mine should not be to you!!!!.
Last edited by nojacketsrequired; 22nd Aug 2002 at 18:04.
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Shoulder to Shoulder!
Compare and contrast Cathay and its 49ers and Aer Lingus and their successful, shoulder to shoulder action
Want a quick recap?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=1662
or
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=54141
Now look at us! Our members re-instated, a previous weak and broken union that's now stronger than it's been in decades and flights that are full everyday! Many cabin crew that decided to take special leave for a few years are being called back early due to staff shortages!
An airline in decline? Loosing money - not friggin likely if there wasn't "Enron-esk" accounting practices going on to make the company look like it was "haemorrhaging" cash.
Not to mention talk of a new A330 comming back into service soon, and new routes are being rummoured every day - Florida, South Africa, perhaps even the middle east!!
jongar - Take note.
All about solidarity - STICK TOGETHER FOR A CHANGE!
Take a look at what it looks like ->
CLICK FOR A PICTURE
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If they were informed what our major international competitors were earning, they would understand, but as they have never heard of airlines such as Southwest, it is a waste of time talking to outsiders, and we will have to include the press soon in that methinks.
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Notso - you seem to misunderstand me, I do not have a lousy job, and while it could be better paid, it is certainly not awful by any means. I am not trying to hang on to it and as for rocking the boat, I will if it needs it, but not so it capsises.
I know that other operators get paid more and I understand all of your arguments - by all means negotiate and get what you can, but pushing the boat under while you retire is just a selfish thing to do. Those behind you who do not have a final earnings pension or the pay that you have will lose their houses etc etc.
How would you like it if ten years ago a load of senior pilots pushed the company under and you had to go and fly seneca's or drive taxis? If your pay is that bad - do something about it, but don't kill everyone else off while you do it. I won't come and nick your car, even though its better than mine - please don't destroy my job because you look out of the window and see people being paid more than you.
There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.
Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....
I know that other operators get paid more and I understand all of your arguments - by all means negotiate and get what you can, but pushing the boat under while you retire is just a selfish thing to do. Those behind you who do not have a final earnings pension or the pay that you have will lose their houses etc etc.
How would you like it if ten years ago a load of senior pilots pushed the company under and you had to go and fly seneca's or drive taxis? If your pay is that bad - do something about it, but don't kill everyone else off while you do it. I won't come and nick your car, even though its better than mine - please don't destroy my job because you look out of the window and see people being paid more than you.
There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.
Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....
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GAZA
<"What do we have to pay to attract and keep the best people?"> The problem is that our wages have fallen behind in comparison to the cost of living and also wrt other carriers. As I explained in my previous post on this thread pilots tend to get tied into the seniority and pension system and the company abuses the fact. 20 or 30 years ago I'd say that BA pilots were PROBABLY on a decent wage - not now.
No Jkts Reqd
I understand your frustrations and perhaps it is unprofessional to spout salaries on a public forum but where else can they be highlighted? Your salary appears a little low and could this be your net or is it your gross? Is this because you are new to the CSD role? I don't mind telling you that on PP4 my average take home was £2600pcm, when I was last on a long haul trip discussing this in the bar the 3 pursers said that they averaged out at £2900 - CSD wasn't about. As I have said previously I don't begrudge you your salaries one jot, the more you can get the better for you. I just think that we, as a group, should be paid more than you and your group - sorry mate its how I feel. That said, I value your support of our claim and I thank you for it.
Ornithopter
Hear where you are coming from but how else are we going to get what we want except by striking? We have been shafted by GUIDING PRINCIPLES for too long as we have played the reasonable thinking man. I too don't want to see BA go under but it does need a bloody good kick up the arse and the axe taken to its flabby bits. FSS hasn't really achieved whats needed, Rod has his hands tied by that Cret1n Colin and poor Skippy probably feels like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. I can only see BA floundering and taking on water in the short term and sinking in the medium term regardless of what we are awarded - 20% rise for all pilots would only mean a 2% rise in the total BA wage bill.
Some facts...
As a % of total labour cost BA pilots make up 13% of the BA wage bill. In Europe the figure varies between 25 to 30% and in the USA 35 to 40%.
BA pilots on average spent 177 days at work in the year, AA 143, AF 137, Ib 108.
Employees per aircraft: BA 250, AF 230, IB 190, BMI 115.
<"What do we have to pay to attract and keep the best people?"> The problem is that our wages have fallen behind in comparison to the cost of living and also wrt other carriers. As I explained in my previous post on this thread pilots tend to get tied into the seniority and pension system and the company abuses the fact. 20 or 30 years ago I'd say that BA pilots were PROBABLY on a decent wage - not now.
No Jkts Reqd
I understand your frustrations and perhaps it is unprofessional to spout salaries on a public forum but where else can they be highlighted? Your salary appears a little low and could this be your net or is it your gross? Is this because you are new to the CSD role? I don't mind telling you that on PP4 my average take home was £2600pcm, when I was last on a long haul trip discussing this in the bar the 3 pursers said that they averaged out at £2900 - CSD wasn't about. As I have said previously I don't begrudge you your salaries one jot, the more you can get the better for you. I just think that we, as a group, should be paid more than you and your group - sorry mate its how I feel. That said, I value your support of our claim and I thank you for it.
Ornithopter
Hear where you are coming from but how else are we going to get what we want except by striking? We have been shafted by GUIDING PRINCIPLES for too long as we have played the reasonable thinking man. I too don't want to see BA go under but it does need a bloody good kick up the arse and the axe taken to its flabby bits. FSS hasn't really achieved whats needed, Rod has his hands tied by that Cret1n Colin and poor Skippy probably feels like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. I can only see BA floundering and taking on water in the short term and sinking in the medium term regardless of what we are awarded - 20% rise for all pilots would only mean a 2% rise in the total BA wage bill.
Some facts...
As a % of total labour cost BA pilots make up 13% of the BA wage bill. In Europe the figure varies between 25 to 30% and in the USA 35 to 40%.
BA pilots on average spent 177 days at work in the year, AA 143, AF 137, Ib 108.
Employees per aircraft: BA 250, AF 230, IB 190, BMI 115.
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 22nd Aug 2002 at 21:47.
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Ornithopter- you're making my head hurt!
<<There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.
Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....>>
You talk as if it will happen of its own accord! Not without a major amount of tweaking- which is what we are trying to do.
Your facetious last comment- my pension was fixed nearly 3 years ago. My 'final year' was then- I'm crystallised. No pay settlement would alter my pension one jot. I'm actually in this because of my disgust at BA pay rates for the likes of YOU! It makes little difference to me- if I get a rise, I won't have long to enjoy it. I would be FAR BETTER OFF NOT STRIKING myself, but I want to leave a valid career for people who worked incredibly hard to get qualified, not 3 weeks in Cranebank learning how to run a cabin. I'm beginning to wonder why I am bothering!
<<There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.
Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....>>
You talk as if it will happen of its own accord! Not without a major amount of tweaking- which is what we are trying to do.
Your facetious last comment- my pension was fixed nearly 3 years ago. My 'final year' was then- I'm crystallised. No pay settlement would alter my pension one jot. I'm actually in this because of my disgust at BA pay rates for the likes of YOU! It makes little difference to me- if I get a rise, I won't have long to enjoy it. I would be FAR BETTER OFF NOT STRIKING myself, but I want to leave a valid career for people who worked incredibly hard to get qualified, not 3 weeks in Cranebank learning how to run a cabin. I'm beginning to wonder why I am bothering!
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Bucking Bronco
Whilst you may be correct about the percentages - I think that you are jumping to the wrong conclusion.
The reason that pilot pay is only about 13% of TOTAL labour costs at BA as opposed to 25-40% everywhere else is not solely down to pay scales. It is due to the fact that every other airline have less Managers and other hangers-on. If BA were manned the same as most others you would see Crew pay, as a percentage of total pay, rise.
As an example - at LGW under FSS, front line - hands on Engineers have been cut by around 20%. This has caused problems with a/c serviceability and impacted on our performance. At the same time NO management positions have been reduced - so the net result of FSS is a worse Direct/Indirect staff ratio than we had before!
As I said before - the economics of the madhouse.
As a % of total labour cost BA pilots make up 13% of the BA wage bill. In Europe the figure varies between 25 to 30% and in the USA 35 to 40%.
The reason that pilot pay is only about 13% of TOTAL labour costs at BA as opposed to 25-40% everywhere else is not solely down to pay scales. It is due to the fact that every other airline have less Managers and other hangers-on. If BA were manned the same as most others you would see Crew pay, as a percentage of total pay, rise.
As an example - at LGW under FSS, front line - hands on Engineers have been cut by around 20%. This has caused problems with a/c serviceability and impacted on our performance. At the same time NO management positions have been reduced - so the net result of FSS is a worse Direct/Indirect staff ratio than we had before!
As I said before - the economics of the madhouse.
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Snipes, I don't think that your union, winning against a manifestly wrong attempt by management to change your conditions, has suddenly revitalised the airline! I think you will find that there is more to running the organisation than the concerns of the pilots. They tried it on and didn't win, so they carry on with managing the outfit, you drive the aeroplanes.
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Too many managers and hangers on...
Jet II
Do you have some data to back this up...?
Employees per aircraft is not an appropriate measure as it often depends on whether ground handling is done by airline staff or outsourced. Don't think that just coz handling is in house, that it is more expensive than outsourcing. Many airlines have been suckered into outsourcing thanks to ground handlers offering loss leader prices for the initial contract and then seeking huge increases in future years to recoup their money - leading to the airline paying more than if it had done the work itself.
Never believe statistics - even when they are right.
Do you have some data to back this up...?
Employees per aircraft is not an appropriate measure as it often depends on whether ground handling is done by airline staff or outsourced. Don't think that just coz handling is in house, that it is more expensive than outsourcing. Many airlines have been suckered into outsourcing thanks to ground handlers offering loss leader prices for the initial contract and then seeking huge increases in future years to recoup their money - leading to the airline paying more than if it had done the work itself.
Never believe statistics - even when they are right.
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To jump to the assistance of Notso here are a number of 'benchmarking' statistics that may help his argument.
Labour Cost
For airlines, labour cost as a percentage of total operating cost is typically:
Europe 25-30%
USA 35-40%
Of that labour cost, pilot costs are in the region of:
Europe 20-23%
USA 28-31%
In British Airways, pilot costs as a percentage of total labour costs are 13%
Pilots per Aircraft (A key measure of our productivity)
British Airways 11.8 Long Haul + Short Haul
British Midland 11.5 Not including Long Haul
Britannia 15.2 LH+SH
Virgin 16.4 All Long Haul
Iberia 12.4 LH+SH
KLM 16.2 LH+SH
Lufthansa 13.2 LH+SH
Air France 15.2 LH+SH
That would appear to answer all the arguments. BA's woes have nothing to do with the pilots
Whether the company would be better off starting with a tabula rasa is up to the city. They could easily ask the board to placate us. But the board aren't leaning on our managers who appear to be just as antagonistic as they have always been.
I have 8 years in this company and if I were to extend the decline in status that my profession has seen in that time, by the end of this decade I imagine I shall be deemed unskilled labour on minimum wage. We all know that's not the case but if you set my managers a 'performance related pay-challenge', they'll take it. If we don't retaliate, they'll get their bonus.
Enough.
Labour Cost
For airlines, labour cost as a percentage of total operating cost is typically:
Europe 25-30%
USA 35-40%
Of that labour cost, pilot costs are in the region of:
Europe 20-23%
USA 28-31%
In British Airways, pilot costs as a percentage of total labour costs are 13%
Pilots per Aircraft (A key measure of our productivity)
British Airways 11.8 Long Haul + Short Haul
British Midland 11.5 Not including Long Haul
Britannia 15.2 LH+SH
Virgin 16.4 All Long Haul
Iberia 12.4 LH+SH
KLM 16.2 LH+SH
Lufthansa 13.2 LH+SH
Air France 15.2 LH+SH
That would appear to answer all the arguments. BA's woes have nothing to do with the pilots
- Productivity or
- Agreements
Whether the company would be better off starting with a tabula rasa is up to the city. They could easily ask the board to placate us. But the board aren't leaning on our managers who appear to be just as antagonistic as they have always been.
I have 8 years in this company and if I were to extend the decline in status that my profession has seen in that time, by the end of this decade I imagine I shall be deemed unskilled labour on minimum wage. We all know that's not the case but if you set my managers a 'performance related pay-challenge', they'll take it. If we don't retaliate, they'll get their bonus.
Enough.
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What! Only 1%? Here at DHL shifting containers all night its more like 2%. I suggest you demand 3% plus double icecream on sundays. Tell e'm if you dont get it your going to stay out late, and make a lot of noise-and you dont care.