SWISS - Once a fine airline, now.....
Thread Starter
SWISS - Once a fine airline, now.....
How COULD this happen. This is more than 'teething' troubles, this indicates serious structural problems. Tha SAAB 340 crash, the Jumbolino crash and the SAAB 2000 crash should NEVER be repeated.
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Swiss pilots licensed by unqualified instructors: watchdog
Unqualified instructors passed 50 pilots to fly a particular type of aircraft for Switzerland's troubled new airline Swiss, according to a statement by the country's civil aviation authority (OFAC), which canceled the tests.
OFAC says between late March and mid-July three instructors had passed the pilots to fly the Brazilian-made Embraer 145, although "they were not entitled to do so".
The instructors concerned were authorised to carry out flying tests, but not for that particular type of aircraft.
OFAC says it has canceled the tests and barred the 50 Swiss airline pilots from flying the Embraer.
Swiss admitted they had made "probably a wrong interpretation" of the European aviation rules.
"There is no indication that leads us to conclude that Swiss and the instructors had acted intentionally or in violation of security norms," OFAC said.
But an OFAC committee is to investigate whether pilots were approved to fly other types of aircraft in the Swiss fleet by unqualified instructors.
OFAC is also considering opening criminal and civil cases against those responsible.
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Reproduced from the Australian Broadcasting Authority.
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Swiss pilots licensed by unqualified instructors: watchdog
Unqualified instructors passed 50 pilots to fly a particular type of aircraft for Switzerland's troubled new airline Swiss, according to a statement by the country's civil aviation authority (OFAC), which canceled the tests.
OFAC says between late March and mid-July three instructors had passed the pilots to fly the Brazilian-made Embraer 145, although "they were not entitled to do so".
The instructors concerned were authorised to carry out flying tests, but not for that particular type of aircraft.
OFAC says it has canceled the tests and barred the 50 Swiss airline pilots from flying the Embraer.
Swiss admitted they had made "probably a wrong interpretation" of the European aviation rules.
"There is no indication that leads us to conclude that Swiss and the instructors had acted intentionally or in violation of security norms," OFAC said.
But an OFAC committee is to investigate whether pilots were approved to fly other types of aircraft in the Swiss fleet by unqualified instructors.
OFAC is also considering opening criminal and civil cases against those responsible.
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Reproduced from the Australian Broadcasting Authority.
e28 driver
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Betta stick to what you know down at Moorabbin mate! My line had a five thousand hour on type check captains license lapse while he wasn't looking. By the letter of the law all the OPC/LPCs he did were invalid but do you really think he was any less qualified to test just because his license was a couple of weeks out of date??
The final reports for some of those accidents mentioned have not been released and regarding the Saab 2000 accident, they found themselves in a situation we all dread - but thankfully extremely rarely face. In the circumstances they appear to have been unbelievable unlucky...
The final reports for some of those accidents mentioned have not been released and regarding the Saab 2000 accident, they found themselves in a situation we all dread - but thankfully extremely rarely face. In the circumstances they appear to have been unbelievable unlucky...
Thread Starter
Not 1 but 3 check captains unqualified.
Not 1 but 3 serious accidents.
I will not allow my family to travel on what was once Crossair. There are some good pilots there of course but the airline should be used as a classic example of why accountants should not run airlines.
The mantra was operate as cheaply as possible. This of course meant get the cheapest pilots. Not all were bad of course but far too many were simply not up to scratch or ill-trained (to save $).
The net result has been tragic for Switzerland, the reputation of the country and the travelling public.
This is not intended as a Swissair/Crossair battle, just a look at reality. If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.
Not 1 but 3 serious accidents.
I will not allow my family to travel on what was once Crossair. There are some good pilots there of course but the airline should be used as a classic example of why accountants should not run airlines.
The mantra was operate as cheaply as possible. This of course meant get the cheapest pilots. Not all were bad of course but far too many were simply not up to scratch or ill-trained (to save $).
The net result has been tragic for Switzerland, the reputation of the country and the travelling public.
This is not intended as a Swissair/Crossair battle, just a look at reality. If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.
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near enuf is good enuf
"a couple of weeks out of date",
Maybe a couple of months would be ok too or sher why not a few years. They are very experienced !
Actually why bother having a licence at all ?
If they can't be professional enuf to keep their licences in check I certainly don't want to fly with 'em.
Maybe a couple of months would be ok too or sher why not a few years. They are very experienced !
Actually why bother having a licence at all ?
If they can't be professional enuf to keep their licences in check I certainly don't want to fly with 'em.
Al E. Vator
If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.
My understanding is that regional operations is harder becuase it involves more cycles in potentially harder IFR than medium or long haul. Additionally mentality plays a hugh role on the operation if they are safe or not and I thought Swiss are excedingly safe. Although swissguide gave me some concern.
Rwy
If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.
My understanding is that regional operations is harder becuase it involves more cycles in potentially harder IFR than medium or long haul. Additionally mentality plays a hugh role on the operation if they are safe or not and I thought Swiss are excedingly safe. Although swissguide gave me some concern.
Rwy
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I agree, one could argue that what counts eventually is the real "hands-on" experience, which a certificate does not necessarily replace. But, come on, rules are rules and there is no reason why Swiss should not abide.
It's our taxpayer's money (and lives?) these people are playing with and how can Swiss can be so arrogant not to abide to established laws. As if Swiss really had the financial and structural health to mess around.
Swiss has been accumulating errors since the very first day and it seems that no one wants to react.
WHO IN THAT COUNTRY WILL EVENTUALLY SUPERVISE THAT COMPANY ???
Mr. Leuenberger, please wake up!
It's our taxpayer's money (and lives?) these people are playing with and how can Swiss can be so arrogant not to abide to established laws. As if Swiss really had the financial and structural health to mess around.
Swiss has been accumulating errors since the very first day and it seems that no one wants to react.
WHO IN THAT COUNTRY WILL EVENTUALLY SUPERVISE THAT COMPANY ???
Mr. Leuenberger, please wake up!
e28 driver
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near enuf is good enuf,
I see you've never made a mistake in your life, which is a good quality for an engineer. Unfortunately it's a fact of life that pilots make mistakes - even the very best ones...
I see you've never made a mistake in your life, which is a good quality for an engineer. Unfortunately it's a fact of life that pilots make mistakes - even the very best ones...
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who is responsible for grounding so many pilots @swiss.
probably largest number of pilot being grounded in the history of aviation due to negligence or unprofessionalism at swiss.
why this happened in first place and who is responsible for such an unthinkable error.
NO 1:
I can only think that chief training pilot is directly responsible for all licencing,qualification and training related matters. This reflects there is plenty of room for improvement in the training department.
NO2:
The TRI/TRE them selves are directly responsile to maintain proper credentials before they even think of lecturing students.
NO3:
Runing a training department in JAR inviroment is no longer for amateurs, Chief training pilot has to be 100% upto the job and knowledge required.
NO4:
If Swiss really wish to retain their reputation as a national airlines, its high time to install a qualified chief training pilot.
NO4:
can not depend just on lady pilot related to foca chief to solve problems.
why this happened in first place and who is responsible for such an unthinkable error.
NO 1:
I can only think that chief training pilot is directly responsible for all licencing,qualification and training related matters. This reflects there is plenty of room for improvement in the training department.
NO2:
The TRI/TRE them selves are directly responsile to maintain proper credentials before they even think of lecturing students.
NO3:
Runing a training department in JAR inviroment is no longer for amateurs, Chief training pilot has to be 100% upto the job and knowledge required.
NO4:
If Swiss really wish to retain their reputation as a national airlines, its high time to install a qualified chief training pilot.
NO4:
can not depend just on lady pilot related to foca chief to solve problems.
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tdk mk2
I think there is more than just a isolated mistake in this case.
crash of saab 340, 2000, erj 146, bending JAR rules will not be tolerated and blaming on foca and misinterpreting of rules will not be excused. FOCA need to look indepth with their training.
I think there is more than just a isolated mistake in this case.
crash of saab 340, 2000, erj 146, bending JAR rules will not be tolerated and blaming on foca and misinterpreting of rules will not be excused. FOCA need to look indepth with their training.
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to TDK mk2
I was not at all referring to pilot mistakes - versions of all the latest events are so contradictory depending on who they're sourced from that it's impossible for a non-insider to base a judgement on it.
I was talking mainly about obstination and lack of pragmatism that lead to management errors. One simple example : corporate name and identity - Swiss Air Lines Ltd... and then suddenly Swiss International Air Lines... this kind of mistakes you can do only with hands full of cash (what they had), but not in a low-margin industry where cash is your blood.
and this is one example.
I was talking mainly about obstination and lack of pragmatism that lead to management errors. One simple example : corporate name and identity - Swiss Air Lines Ltd... and then suddenly Swiss International Air Lines... this kind of mistakes you can do only with hands full of cash (what they had), but not in a low-margin industry where cash is your blood.
and this is one example.
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Licences...
Well, JAR in General leaves a lot of questions, and as far as i know, the Swiss FAA could have discreetly inform SWISS that because of a new rule (which was only brougth to attention by e-mail!!!) a type rating has to be entered also for instruction purposes...it's a paperstorm...
But for the beginning question, look exactly which part of SWISS is having/making problems?
But for the beginning question, look exactly which part of SWISS is having/making problems?
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I agree, that people are making mistakes (even pilots..), but if you see in one part of the company all the mistakes and a not only a few and minor ones, than I think everybody should start thinking!
I still hear the following sentence from the ex-Crossair pilots union CCP: “Same work, same salary”. But same work means same quality, too. And definitely the regional part of SWISS doesn’t work the same quality; otherwise they wouldn’t be all the time with negative headlines in the press!
I still hear the following sentence from the ex-Crossair pilots union CCP: “Same work, same salary”. But same work means same quality, too. And definitely the regional part of SWISS doesn’t work the same quality; otherwise they wouldn’t be all the time with negative headlines in the press!
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how to define safety??????
to 126.9
so, you prefer to fly with other "safer" airlines? like lufthansa, which almost crashed an airbus because of a mis-connection of the captains joystick? or like alitalia, which smacked a dc9 on the stadlerberg, because of a catastrophic CRM? or like SIN, departing on a wrong runway?
how do suggest that swiss is less safe than others? i know many people which told me about some procedures in THEIR airline. it's not better than swiss...it's just that in some other countries the culture of ripping the own airlines on the front page of yellow press is not as developed in switzerland
and after all, it has to do with good or bad luck.
have a look on some homepages of accident investigation boards. it's best to never fly again and take the train. (oh. sorry...forgot eschede). as far as i know, no airline is 100% safe. if you can prove the opposite, go ahead, but no "airline xxx has never crashed an airline in the last xxx years". to have a safe airline you have to remove the human factor. and that's definetly impossible!!!
cheers
so, you prefer to fly with other "safer" airlines? like lufthansa, which almost crashed an airbus because of a mis-connection of the captains joystick? or like alitalia, which smacked a dc9 on the stadlerberg, because of a catastrophic CRM? or like SIN, departing on a wrong runway?
how do suggest that swiss is less safe than others? i know many people which told me about some procedures in THEIR airline. it's not better than swiss...it's just that in some other countries the culture of ripping the own airlines on the front page of yellow press is not as developed in switzerland
and after all, it has to do with good or bad luck. have a look on some homepages of accident investigation boards. it's best to never fly again and take the train. (oh. sorry...forgot eschede). as far as i know, no airline is 100% safe. if you can prove the opposite, go ahead, but no "airline xxx has never crashed an airline in the last xxx years". to have a safe airline you have to remove the human factor. and that's definetly impossible!!!
cheers
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Dear Theblipdriver
- Safety is if you not have 3 (THREE) total losses within two years!
- If you don't have at least 2 (TWO) runway excoursions within 1 year!
- If you not have a pilot union, who is telling at the main TV station, that you have a safety problem, because you are fighting for a better CLA!
- If you not have used the wrong oil for your enginges!
- If you not have pilots taking drugs for work!
- etc.......
And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.
PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!
- Safety is if you not have 3 (THREE) total losses within two years!
- If you don't have at least 2 (TWO) runway excoursions within 1 year!
- If you not have a pilot union, who is telling at the main TV station, that you have a safety problem, because you are fighting for a better CLA!
- If you not have used the wrong oil for your enginges!
- If you not have pilots taking drugs for work!
- etc.......
And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.
PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!
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And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.
PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!
i DO CARE about swiss too, and I agree that there are more problems on the CRX than on the SWR-side regarding safety...for me, it's just wrong to yell around that swiss is unsafe, and all the other airlines are better. that was the main point.
one really good statement of ph. bruggisser was "you must not make publicity with safety. because everything can happen to everyone. and then people think you lied to them" (and this was before halifax)
so, what is now the safest airline?
i didn't mean to wash swiss' hands clean. but it's still far from an "unsafe" airline. and, most hopefully, will never get even close to...
cheers
PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!
i DO CARE about swiss too, and I agree that there are more problems on the CRX than on the SWR-side regarding safety...for me, it's just wrong to yell around that swiss is unsafe, and all the other airlines are better. that was the main point.
one really good statement of ph. bruggisser was "you must not make publicity with safety. because everything can happen to everyone. and then people think you lied to them" (and this was before halifax)
so, what is now the safest airline?
i didn't mean to wash swiss' hands clean. but it's still far from an "unsafe" airline. and, most hopefully, will never get even close to...
cheers
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Just another number
regarding middlepaths comments about the license problem with SWISS, all I have to say is this....find out the facts pal before making comments that you obviously have no clue about. Reading the Blick is hardly a form of reliable info.
The problem came about from the FOCA and they admitted the fault and THEY went to the papers and now the ERJ team are taking legal action.
The problem came about from the FOCA and they admitted the fault and THEY went to the papers and now the ERJ team are taking legal action.