SWISS - Once a fine airline, now.....
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Thank you for your post N380UA,
Your SR story reminds me of when I came back to Europe after I passed my FAA CPL IR, ME IR, CFII and MEI and had to sit boring theory exams to get my European licences. It´s the typical snobbish European mentality that they are better then anybody else. The same is happening now within Swiss and this is leading to a lot of unnecesary tention. Instead of accepting that we can all learn from eachother, we now have a situation where one pilot corps (in the same company) is bashing the other. Just read skypointer´s posts, or look at Aeropers´ statements in the media
That´s excatly what we will do and that´s also why Aeropers and managment are gettng more scared by the day. We still have a valid (old) contract until 2005 and the courts have proven to be on our side.
Skypointer,
OK, I admit it, you are funnier. 
Just by reading your posts again (full of insults), I think that you just disqualified yourself from being inside any SR cockpit. 
Your SR story reminds me of when I came back to Europe after I passed my FAA CPL IR, ME IR, CFII and MEI and had to sit boring theory exams to get my European licences. It´s the typical snobbish European mentality that they are better then anybody else. The same is happening now within Swiss and this is leading to a lot of unnecesary tention. Instead of accepting that we can all learn from eachother, we now have a situation where one pilot corps (in the same company) is bashing the other. Just read skypointer´s posts, or look at Aeropers´ statements in the media
Ex-LX; just go on as is for the time being, rebuild a solid structure then demand equalisation.
Skypointer,
RV, back as well? How was your comedian course? Doesn't seem to have helped much though!
You will also not find a SR pilot that thinks he's god - our selection process prevented such people from entering a cockpit.
Just by reading your posts again (full of insults), I think that you just disqualified yourself from being inside any SR cockpit.
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Oh that’s great Skypointer! Now such statements really make for a happy work environment!!!
If you think that I am the reason for the unhappy work environment, you either take me to important or you underestimate the scope of the differences and the - sorry to use the word - hatred between the two corps. Your choice.
Last edited by skypointer; 21st Aug 2002 at 12:31.
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Hey, am I glad I turned down a job offer by Crossair a couple of years ago! Maybe I make less money than I would have with Crossair or whatever they call them now but at least I can fly safely with ALL crew in my company. Isn't that great or what!
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...but it took a war first (Sonderbundskrieg) which ended in 1847, with almost no casualties. The side that didn't call the others nazis just because they had an other opinion won - or similar as there were no nazis in 1847. So lets hope for once that history repeats itself...
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and they managed to put together a confederation of cantons and form a country; unbelieveable!
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Thank you skypointer....
Anyway, back to topic. Just blaming the LX pilots for anything that goes wrong is not fair in my point of view. It´s managment incompetence. You get what you pay for, and managment has never seriously invested in it´s personel. Managment continues to have a complete disregard for the Law or industry standards, and this is setting the standard for the whole company. Whether it´s technical/maintanance problems, the contract between the flight attendants, the shortage of flight attendants, the blunders that were made with trying to bring together the LX and ex-SR pilot corps, the whole Tyler Brule Swisssssssssss media hype and now the licencing problem of some Embrio 145 pilots.......the list goes on and on and on ! If you realize that there are a lot of ex-SR people calling the shots form behind the scenes, then you have to come to the conclussion that it´s not just a "Crossair" problem. The Crossair managers are perhaps not the greatest in the world, but one glance at the bankrupt SAir Group shows that SR managers are not of much help either.
The New Crossair (a.k.a. Swiss) is based on emotional quicksand, rather then strong economic foundations. Let´s hope that we get some real leadership soon, before it´s too late.
Anyway, back to topic. Just blaming the LX pilots for anything that goes wrong is not fair in my point of view. It´s managment incompetence. You get what you pay for, and managment has never seriously invested in it´s personel. Managment continues to have a complete disregard for the Law or industry standards, and this is setting the standard for the whole company. Whether it´s technical/maintanance problems, the contract between the flight attendants, the shortage of flight attendants, the blunders that were made with trying to bring together the LX and ex-SR pilot corps, the whole Tyler Brule Swisssssssssss media hype and now the licencing problem of some Embrio 145 pilots.......the list goes on and on and on ! If you realize that there are a lot of ex-SR people calling the shots form behind the scenes, then you have to come to the conclussion that it´s not just a "Crossair" problem. The Crossair managers are perhaps not the greatest in the world, but one glance at the bankrupt SAir Group shows that SR managers are not of much help either.
The New Crossair (a.k.a. Swiss) is based on emotional quicksand, rather then strong economic foundations. Let´s hope that we get some real leadership soon, before it´s too late.
Last edited by Robert Vesco; 21st Aug 2002 at 13:36.
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Full marks RV. Might we have found some common ground after all? If you pay peanuts you get monkeys... It's valid for pilots as well!
This isn't meant as an insult for the Crossair pilots, but it explains why you cannot pay much less than than the industry standard for a long time - think about it!
This isn't meant as an insult for the Crossair pilots, but it explains why you cannot pay much less than than the industry standard for a long time - think about it!
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Precisely skypointer, that´s why the Aeropers strategy of treating the LX pilots like sh!t, will eventually backfire if you start looking at SWISS as one company !
Good pilots with enough experience will try to go to greener grass because they do NOT like getting screwed with seniority, vacation etcetera. Additionally foreign captains with great ideas of how to improve things are send home, because SWISS has to be for the Swiss now.
Pilots left at OC1 will roughly be; badly motivated, not very experienced and cheaply trained first officers, and, captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline.
Great ! 
I agree, but in all fairness, please also apply the same logic/industry standard to seniority ! You can not apply industry standards when it suits you, and disregard them when it does not suit you. Like I stated many times before, this battle is about seniority, not about money, because we can already see the black clouds hanging over SWISS.
Like this Swiss can never build a quality airline with a motivated workforce. SWISS is build on quicksand and this B-GAV is definitely not improving things.
Good pilots with enough experience will try to go to greener grass because they do NOT like getting screwed with seniority, vacation etcetera. Additionally foreign captains with great ideas of how to improve things are send home, because SWISS has to be for the Swiss now.
Pilots left at OC1 will roughly be; badly motivated, not very experienced and cheaply trained first officers, and, captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline.
Great !
...but it explains why you cannot pay much less than than the industry standard for a long time
Like this Swiss can never build a quality airline with a motivated workforce. SWISS is build on quicksand and this B-GAV is definitely not improving things.
Last edited by Robert Vesco; 21st Aug 2002 at 14:26.
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SWISS Future
I was going to suggest a vote on when SWISS breaks up, given that neither side LX or SR seem to be willing to show an olive branch.. but I won't bother - its an absolute dead cert. given the texts above.
Sorry to see you throw your last chances away, but you certainly won't get more tax money this way; and especially not if my voice is heard. You'll only find me on Swiss using up my hard earnt miles.
Felt very sad for Moritz having to walk away from his baby, but glad for him now, very glad that he got out in time....... he didn't deserve this stubborn childish stupidity. Sadly there is probably more chance true peace in Northern Ireland or even the Middle East than getting you guys to understand that it takes team work and not the German version of TEAM as an acronym (roughly translated as 'Great Somebody Else can do It').
Sorry to see you throw your last chances away, but you certainly won't get more tax money this way; and especially not if my voice is heard. You'll only find me on Swiss using up my hard earnt miles.
Felt very sad for Moritz having to walk away from his baby, but glad for him now, very glad that he got out in time....... he didn't deserve this stubborn childish stupidity. Sadly there is probably more chance true peace in Northern Ireland or even the Middle East than getting you guys to understand that it takes team work and not the German version of TEAM as an acronym (roughly translated as 'Great Somebody Else can do It').
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Felt very sad for Moritz having to walk away from his baby
Pilots left at OC1 will roughly be; badly motivated, not very experienced and cheaply trained first officers, and, captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline.
What you say about OC1 is equally true about OC2, if you merge seniority with the CCP zipper! And then SWISS is really doomed.
BTW: What do you think we should do with those "captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline"? Just let them keep on flying? I've never heard CCP speak of such guys, as we are all the same in their terminology!
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I think, by judging some spelling in these columns, there are people who need to improve their spelling, if that is the way you will fly an aircraft, hope I am NOT on board with you, even if you think you are Swiss with the mentality of having the best everywhere....
I also had airforce training, and was involved in war, and have good flying qualifications, but I hope my attitude to my fellow colleges remain shiny.
Keep on fighting, AP....
I also had airforce training, and was involved in war, and have good flying qualifications, but I hope my attitude to my fellow colleges remain shiny.
Keep on fighting, AP....
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Yes skypointer,
This is exactly my point, first we got screwed by MS, now we get screwed by AP. Net result : zero changes for OC 1 ! Crossair and Swissair are dead, long live OC1 and OC2 !
Full marks again. Only that the incidents and accidents within LX indicate that it might already be so... And it's no wonder after Moritz (see above) screwed his pilots for years, while there was a great demand for good, experienced pliots in the last few years up to Sep 11 2001
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Switzerland
was founded in 1291, but a lot of time and stories had to pass until today, including soldiers from one part of a canton (district) were fighting (well, rather slaughtering...) the one from the other part of the same canton at the opposite side of the battlefield, but not within switzerland but elsewhere and under command of somebody else...
And we are still here...
Hey, come on guys, just deleted a few sentences about Moritz Suter (too nasty) , which i believe played a role similar to a "Rattenfänger von Hameln" in Aviation. His bright side in public has a very dark counterpart if you better know him (of course not viewable if you rely on him on beeing in the game...) I believe there's a possibility to run a airline in Switzerland, the 5000 million Francs put in the sand by the former SR-Managment have been earnt before by....flying. The new ship is by far not yet steaming as it should, but on course...
And we are still here...
Hey, come on guys, just deleted a few sentences about Moritz Suter (too nasty) , which i believe played a role similar to a "Rattenfänger von Hameln" in Aviation. His bright side in public has a very dark counterpart if you better know him (of course not viewable if you rely on him on beeing in the game...) I believe there's a possibility to run a airline in Switzerland, the 5000 million Francs put in the sand by the former SR-Managment have been earnt before by....flying. The new ship is by far not yet steaming as it should, but on course...
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124.8, sorry for my eventual misspellings. If you prefer we could continue in french, german or italien, although I cannot guarantee absulote orthographic correctness in all those languages, as I'm a pilot and not a language professor. How about you? If this is the only thing you can contribute, I suggest you go to a grammar/orthography forum - if such a thing exists...
BTW: How do you spell Switzerland???
BTW: How do you spell Switzerland???
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Swissair pilot culture taken to the court
next hearing on September 24th in Bülach; details in German only on http://home.tiscalinet.ch/maxlenz
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Skyguide, Stadlerberg, 1291, war, the xenophobic guide to the Swiss, Suter what else?... oh ya, cantons and Sonderbundskrieg.
Good luck to you, Swiss International Air Lines.
Indeed, good luck to all of us.............................
What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.
Indeed, good luck to all of us.............................