SWISS - Once a fine airline, now.....

[Alpha Leader]

theblipdriver

The accident report on the AZ DC-9 crash at Stadlerberg did not exactly exonerate ATC either.......

[N380UA]

773829

And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.

have a look at those number buddy:

LX - SR

Av. No. of fataleties/year 1.3 - 5.8
Av. No. of fataleties/loos 17.0 - 26.5

http://www.jacdec.de/


Of course, such statistics do nothing to solve any problem Swiss is having amongst its crew and doesn’t really reflect on safety and standards of a carrier. What it does show, however is that just about every airline has had, or will have some loos.

(Some physicist once tried to explain it to me through applied quantum physics....never quite understood that formula)

Anyhow, 773829, the Blick isn't the source to go to as it was mentioned before. And I for one and a bunch of others are still feeling very safe upon boarding an aircraft piloted by former lx crews. Let’s stick to the facts we know, let’s not speculate and let’s all try to pull this wagon out of the mud together, the situation is (worldwide) bad enough as it is without us screwing each other.-

[Proceed As Cleared]

Alpha Leader!

What is your problem?!

Again one of your posts is completely out of context!

And, surprising enough, again you keep on bashing Swiss ATC.

Would you care to appreciate, that the controller in charge, when the AZA DC9 crashed, was acquitted of all charges by the swiss federal court 2 years ago?

You seem to have persistent resentments against Skyguide and I wouldn't be as mad, if your posts were at least objective !

[skypointer]

if your posts were at least objective

Hey, Proceed As Cleared, no reason to get a heartattack! Some writers disqualify themselves - Alpha Leader is one of them.

While skyguide clearly has some problems to solve - like corporate communication, I would never doubt the professionalism of its controllers. And certainly nobody with a clear mind and a clue about aviation could blame an ATC controller for a crash of an airliner, that went below an instument glidepath and did a CFIT about 6 NM final.

Some poeple just want to distract from the real topic: That the former LX part of SWISS has a real safety problem. For those who haven't realized this yet, the upcoming accident report of the Nassenwil crash will certainly be insightful reading...

[gofer]

PAC

AL was not - completely up the wall - as he didn't start the comment - blip did, if you read back. Sorry

As to AL's opinions compared to the legal situation, well we are all allowed to have them - even thought in Switzerland foreigners are not allowed to state them in public - unless they accept deportation as the risk.

Could even understand your stance, if it was not for the recent events.

733829

As an only semi-unbiased person, I do take offence to the heavy LX bashing - which actually totally undermines the company you all say you want to save.

Sombody was nice enough to a get LX out of the SR implosion and a country was nice enough to finance another round and then the ungrateful and unemployed SR staff who are in some cases still paid more for an equivalent task, are ungrateful for having been found a home and having persuaded a twisted management into allowing them keep their previous seniority. Talk about killing the golden goose.

Thats how it looks to lots of outsiders - and when it does, they just stay away. So do I if I can because I see a serious lack of effort on the part of ex. SR crews to improve service to a level above that of the deaththrows of last year - still living in a past that has long since gone, and will be gone again if this goes on more than a few weeks.

Luckily for me, I have a choice (around a 300'000 miles a year choice); employees only have an employer or the dole.

While we're at it
To me, and some others, much of the saga's woes seem to come from one of the pseudo saviours in management today. To my eyes, until I can read a few reports, the two LX hull losses (S340 & RJ) come from a concatination of Haley type little incidents, not the least of which is the crew rostering - one of somebody's direct responsibilities I think - at least at the time of the first incident.

The seniority SNAFU and the salary differentials FUBAR's were also sourced at a senior level of the management, and were absolutly clear to anybody with a week's experience of unions that this would be the possible "end all".

Part of me still hopes that SWISS get their act together and make it happen - the rest of me just expects to see the whole thing collapse (current book suggests - MAR03) and if that happens there is no Easter Bunny with a crock of gold to pick up the pieces again - it will be MOL or Easypickings and the pay will be worse for anybody who does get a sweathouse job at all.

So my advice to you all is - stop p*ss*ng around, get your act together, and for something's sake, stop talking and snivelling around, get on with it ,and prove us all wrong.

[arcniz]

skypointer says:

While skyguide clearly has some problems to solve - like corporate communication, I would never doubt the professionalism of its controllers.

What planet are you from, fella? Explain that to the people who are now just carbon-am-Bodensee due to less than stellar ATC performance.

A touch of realism would help here.

[skypointer]

Well, arcniz, I never intended to say it was a good job to bring those two aircraft on a collision course. And neither is it a good job to ignore a TCAS RA. So let's wait and see what the accident report says. I am sure skyguide will have to change procedures, as quite a few airlines will have to - at least - clarify their TCAS procedures.

I was mainly referring to the Alitalia accident, where the controller clearly could not be blamed.

On the other hand, we all make mistakes from time to time. And in some rare cases these mistakes lead to tragic accidents like the midair collision over Lake Konstanz. What I am saying is that skyguide is as good as any european ATC unit and I do not say there is no room for improvement. But accidents may happen to the best! I have seen a few Airprox in my career as a pilot - one in swiss airspace and the rest elsewhere...

What made me really angry was, that after the midair collision skyguide management blamed the TU pilot without even knowing the facts. All that a party involved in an accident has to say is, that they are first of all sorry for the casualties and that they will provide all imformation needed for the investigation and will be prepared to bear the responsability, if it was their fault. Everything else is simply unprofessional. That's why I said skyguide has to rethink its corporate communication.

[arcniz]

Skypointer writes:
".. we all make mistakes from time to time." :

While philosphically indisputable, this is not a good motto for an ATC organization... or any other one connected with aviation.

The function of SOP's is to provide some cross-checking and recovery mechanism for inevitable human errors.

The function of management is to ensure that SOP's (and other forms of operational good practice) are followed 100 percent of the time.

In this case the procedures seem to have been lacking or absent and the management was sleeping quietly when Skyguide put those two aircraft together for their destruction in an otherwise empty sky.

Nothing good can be said about the Skyguide side of this incident. The inept 'damage control' efforts of various Skyguide people after the tragic event shows how little they care about the the real misson of an ATC organization and how totally out of control "Swissguide" management was / is. A team of ten year old children would have done it better - and with more humanity!

I have great affection and respect for nearly everything Swiss, but I fear for the future if the people in positions of responsibility think Schweitzer Qualitat is in any way present in this deplorable ATC circus.

[Robert Vesco]

Skypointer,

On the other hand, we all make mistakes from time to time.

We all make mistakes, except ex-SR pilots I guess.....

Some poeple just want to distract from the real topic: That the former LX part of SWISS has a real safety problem.

Talking about professionalism, why don´t the ex-SR "colleagues" within SWISS reach out a helping hand to their ex-LX colleagues and try to establish a better safety culture for the benefit of the whole company, not just the ex-SR ops ? Instead, one hand of the ex-SR pilots is in their pockets guarding their wallet, the other hand is pointing the middle finger at their ex-LX "colleagues."

The present expantion of Crossair would have been a perfect opportunity to level the playing flield a little bit more. It´s not just about money, it´s a much bigger picture. Things like better training, a better safety culture, less commercial pressure on pilots, and yes, equal holidays and fair seniority system that will not scare good pilots away as soon as they have enough hours to leave the company. There are many things that could and/or should be improved within the ex-LX operation, but I sometimes get the impression that Aeropers deliberately wants to prevent LX of improving anything, because in the present situation (LX pilots are idiots, SR pilots are Gods) can easily be used to justify the privileges of the ex-SR pilots. When the need arises to bash the LX pilots corps (like now, during a dispute about a new contract) there are plenty of incidents and accidents available to make Crossair pilots look like the idots. Not only on this forum, but also in the Swiss media, Aeropers does not hesitate to do so ! Very ´convenient´ for Aeropers, isn´t it ? And these people see themselves as more "professional" Sad, really sad !

All we get in the new contract is a little extra money while we get screwed on virtually every other part. The extra money, I consider ´danger money,´ a pay off, a bribe, whatever, for getting screwed in the new contract, while operating into more ´challenging´ fields like Lugano, Bern, La Mole, or London City. Nice for the Swiss ego (a Swiss flag at every airport ), the SWISS route network and to feed the fancy oversized (ex-SR) long haul fleet, and hey....when something goes wrong, it´s easy to point the finger at those ´stupid´ Crossair pilots again.

[MartinBaker]

RV

1/ I don't think anybody needs to point fingers ...reading your postings is quite enuff!!

2/ if the LH fleet is oversized ..why are all the planes full?

3/ For the rest I suggest you get rid of your 'chip on the shoulder' and organise a reality check.

Best regards nevertheless

[Robert Vesco]

I´m very impressed by your first post MB ! Amazing that you found the time to invent a username and go through the trouble to register and share your ´visionary´ thoughts with us here on PPRuNe. Here´s a quick reply to your 3 ´ground breaking´ points :

1) This part of your post has been very ´informative´ and backed up with a lot of ´arguments.´ My sincere thanks !

2) It´s easy to fill any aircraft if the ticket prices/yields are low enough. In the current economic climate, do the words "supply and demand" ring a bell ?

3) Good night !

[Alpha Leader]

Proceed As Cleared

My post "completely out of context"? Get your brain switched on (if you can find it) and then sit back and let the notion sink in that I replied directly to an item posted by "theblipdriver".

Moreover, I am fully aware that the controller was acquitted by a Swiss court. However, my posting pertains to the BFU report, which - and I stand by my remarks - did not entirely exonorate ATC at the time.

By the way: I love your little "mad faces" - have you ever tried to place a dozen in one of your postings?

[Proceed As Cleared]

With skypointer's words:

Some writers disqualify themselves - Alpha Leader is one of them

Nuff said.

[Alpha Leader]

Proceed As Cleared

Wonderful....you've got at least one friend in "skypointer"

For your benefit: the BFU report on the Stadlerberg crash listed a total of nine factors as attributable causes, one being negligence by the controller who could have prevented the accident from happening had he provided a timely warning to the crew.

The fact that a criminal investigation into the conduct of the controller resulted in no charges being brought and that the Federal Court - in a subsequent civil case - ruled out any financial liability on the part of ATC does not alter the findings of the accident report.

[kitesurfer]

Robert Vesco

RB good on ya mate. One thing people always seem to omit is the fact that anybody can fill seats, but what you make from those seats is a totally different story.
Another thing is that the so called short haul fleet is not making money and that is why the LH guys are earning the higher salary. I would say that flying a 5 rotation day is a fair amount of work and our dear friends flying the "big" birds average , what, about 3 landings each a month.
How do the management work out that the A319/20/21 is long haul....look at the routes pal and you'll see that ERJ-145 have longer routes than those things

[773829]

Hello Kitesurfer


Who cares about distances flown or amount of landings? It is everywhere the same. People with better qualifications earn more! I mean not, that all ex-LX pilot are not good qualified, but until now they could not show! So if you are just a little patient, than you get the same job as the former SR pilots, with the better salary.

Qualification for me means what you learnt before flying, how you learnt flying and what attitude you show in general.

By the way are you really sure, that a pilot with 20 landings a month is the better pilot, than one who is doing only one or two? (Some people need a lot of training to keep their standards...)


Gruss

[from A to Better]

77 something,

Although I cannot deny that there are some safety issues at the ex-crx operation it is pathetic that you keep telling that it is a reason for differences in salary.

Also, you are very proud of being an ex-sr pilot with all the qualifications, etc. but there must surely made some mistake somewhere in your selection process because you are lacking some basic english skills, cause-result analyses, I could go on.

With all your implied knowledge and qual. you AP guys should have been able to prevent the Swissair management tanking the company. Where where you?

You say you should more money because of your qualifications but AP (together with management) says it is because of LH/SH and aircraft size. Wich is it?

Most ex-crx pilots are not asking for more money, just the same secondary work-conditions and a fair seniority system.

And reading your last words, can you explain to me what makes a better pilot ?

take care

[skypointer]

Nice to see all those ex-LX guys on the net. Have you got to much time at home 'cause your licences were illegal?
Well luckily I was able to go flying out of one of my days off - so one flight less had to be canceled...

RV, back as well? How was your comedian course? Doesn't seem to have helped much though! Your still not very witty. But I have news for you. Ex SR is helping you improve your training program. Our new head of trainig is ex SR and he introduced already more simulator events on some regional fleets. Head TRTO is also helping you to adapt your conversion courses. But the process would be considerabely faster, if an ex SR guy with a good idea would be seen as something else than just a imperialistic, elitarian asshole who thinks he knows everything better.

there are plenty of incidents and accidents available to make Crossair pilots look like the idots

It's the first time we agree, isn't it? I never said that all Crossair pilots are idiots because I am well aware that the majority of them are capable pilots. You will also not find a SR pilot that thinks he's god - our selection process prevented such people from entering a cockpit. Some of them were hired by LX instead, where having a CPL was qualification enough. And exactly those pilots are makeing SWISS operation look bad now! To think you're god doesn't help CRM. Read the upcoming Nassenwil report.

It's CCP who started the dirty media war. Aeropers is only defending itself. If CCP says all pilots are the same, while making a clown out of themselves every day, its only natural that Aeropers emphasizes the differences.

BTW: If your not interested in the money, why are you talking about nothing else then? The statment "We're not interested in the money, but we wan't the same salary as a SR pilot" is a contradiction in itself. Whether it's fair or not: pilot salaries are paid according to aircraft size throughout the whole industry and you will not be able to change this. And neither can you change the fact that a Saab is smaller than a Airbus. (MD80 pilots were offered the Airbus salary - as you perhaps know.) The vacation statment is false too, as the contract was adapted in this point as well. So you should update your argumentation from time to time...

I can understand that you are thinking that Lugano and London city are the two most challanging fields one earth, as you do not seem to have left europe in your career. But you forgot to mention Werneuchen in your list.:o

And kitesurfer says:

look at the routes pal and you'll see that ERJ-145 have longer routes than those things

Now, just because you have 25% more flighttime on your way to Vienna, that doesn't make the route any longer. Have you ever flown to JED in your Embriolino? (For the rgional pilots: JED is in Saudi Arabia)

I would say that flying a 5 rotation day is a fair amount of work and our dear friends flying the "big" birds average , what, about 3 landings each a month.

I have 85 blockhours and 46 landings this month. Comined Longhaul/Shorthaul. A fair amount of work for you?

[N380UA]

77 something

Qualification for me means what you learnt before flying, how you lernt flying and what attitude you show in general.

Huh??

I have a university degree and received flight training from UL on a 733 and yet SR found me unqualified? They did tell me to go to SRAS though and spend some 100’000 CHF to ascertain “SR standards”. What a bunch of bull****.

A bunch of ex-LX drivers, in fact hold several uni. degrees, graduated from SRAS so what makes you think that you are better then them?
As for the problem (topic) at hand; it isn’t Skyguide, it isn’t ex-anything….its the attitude of all involved.

Ex-LX; just go on as is for the time being, rebuild a solid structure then demand equalisation.
Ex-SR; you are not better than you colleagues, period. Come on down from your imaginative status.

Darn it guys, get on with it – rebuild! -take your second and last chance and make it happen.

[skypointer]

Well, RV, EMB 145 fleet, will have 4 Sim events starting 2003. As well should the Briefing time be adapted. All this can be read in the join together training memo from TRTO. Perhaps, instaed of just ppruneing, you should start to inform yourself through official channels as well?

Could you show me where this statement is written

Why don't you read your CCP statements from time to time? I just took the liberty to put it in one sentence. If you prefer to hear it I could provide you with a copy of Mr. Häderlis statments on Tele Züri a few days ago...

And concernig disqualification: who insulted whom? I said the majority of ex LX pilots was capable. I don't think thats an insult! While I don't know your flying capabilities, I think it's better we won't be flying together too soon...

Now that was really clever RV, first provoking by calling me a nazi and a liar and then delete the whole thing - congratulations