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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Old 19th Jun 2020, 13:47
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Always good there is a safety zone along a runway.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 14:00
  #42 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi View Post
My lament too, is that most airline pilots these days don't get intensive instruction or screening for handling techniques, and there are some truly abysmal examples out there. This video doesn't surprise me at all - infact I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often!
I would suggest that the diminishing standard probably began 20-25 years ago when the number of A2s leaving the Services for the ‘“Approved Schools’” began to reduce with a contraction of the RAF.

So the number of pilots being trained by ex A2s reduced, and so the known quality passed down reduces as an overall percentage.
You are now faced with instructors who, through no fault of their own, have been taught indifferently in the first place. Hardly surprising the overall standard reduces?

“You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear to quote an old proverb.

That said, there are some hotspots of QUALITY; and of course a good student will succeed despite his instructor....

The fundamental skill which needs to be learnt is one of selecting the prescribed ATTITUDE and TRIMMING.
Get that correct and Joe might yet smile...?

Last edited by parkfell; 19th Jun 2020 at 14:24.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 14:42
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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In turboprops, the Shorts 360, the Dash 8 and the Q400; crabbing, then converting to wing-down/crossed controls at about a mile or two out seemed the best way to me.

On heavier aircraft that were also jets with underslung engines, crabbing right down into the flare and then gently pushing* straight with rudder just before the mains touch seems best.

Broken rudder control?
This ATP did not appear to put in any rudder during the flare. Would love to know why. A control fault or restriction of some sort perhaps?


* note: pushing, not "kicking". No control should be kicked or moved violently.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 15:30
  #44 (permalink)  
lsh
 
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The winds at BHX were between 80 to 100 degrees off the runway (33). Full x-wind component.

The same winds (if they were the same?) at EMA would have been 20 to 40 degrees off the runway (27). Between 2/3rds max and 1/3rd min x-wind component, approx, using rule of thumb.

Control fault or restriction = go to the most into wind runway you can find. EMA.

Regardless of the method (or combination of methods) selected for handling, the aircraft did not appear to use rudder in any meaningful form on either landing attempt.

Our Ops Manual precluded more than two approaches to the same runway - a diversion to EMA after the second approach might still have worked well overall, with no paperwork.

I did 14 years of turbo-prop night freight and am a decidedly average pilot. I empathise with tired crew. But the basic flying and management skills seem totally lacking here.


Last edited by lsh; 19th Jun 2020 at 15:32. Reason: edit
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 16:59
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fair_Weather_Flyer View Post
Well, the airline has appeared in the AAIB reports quite a lot of late. Last year, it' had two ATP, serious incidents in one AAIB bulletin. These were highly detailed investigations. I don't think that the AAIB will (or can) ignore this event, especially when it has been broadcast all over the internet.

Does anyone remember Emerald Airways and how that played out?
................and installation of an ILS to RW08 not long after. The countdown-in/countup-from a VOR as an approach was always a (near) disaster waiting to happen.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 22:28
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Never seen anyone ‘kick off drift’


But it’s an unfortunate expression that should be retired to prevent it being attempted
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 22:38
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Nor do the ailerons. To be fair to crews, a lot of training departments tell crews not to apply into wind aileron, but whenever it gets badly out of shape, as it does here, it's nearly always the UPWIND wing that lifts, precipitating a loss of directional control. If nothing else, kicking off the drift has the secondary dihedral effect of lifting the upwind wing. Much better to come into the the flare with a bit of roll input and be ready for more, then up to full aileron after touchdown.
​​​​
a lot of training departments? Evidence for this?
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 04:08
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
I would suggest that the diminishing standard probably began 20-25 years ago when the number of A2s leaving the Services for the ‘“Approved Schools’” began to reduce with a contraction of the RAF.

So the number of pilots being trained by ex A2s reduced, and so the known quality passed down reduces as an overall percentage.
You are now faced with instructors who, through no fault of their own, have been taught indifferently in the first place. Hardly surprising the overall standard reduces?

“You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear to quote an old proverb.

That said, there are some hotspots of QUALITY; and of course a good student will succeed despite his instructor....

The fundamental skill which needs to be learnt is one of selecting the prescribed ATTITUDE and TRIMMING.
Get that correct and Joe might yet smile...?
yeah, of course, because only the military can produce basic flight instructors.zzzzzzzz.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 05:08
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I realise that telephoto distorts the effect of the dip in the runway, but surely it shouldn't have been built like that
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 06:51
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
Never seen anyone ‘kick off drift’

But it’s an unfortunate expression that should be retired to prevent it being attempted

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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:02
  #51 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
yeah, of course, because only the military can produce basic flight instructors.zzzzzzzz.
Unless they are civilian contractors carrying out military contracts and training civilians as instructors...
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:09
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyboy146 View Post
a lot of training departments? Evidence for this?
Having always used, and taught when training, into wind aileron after landing in a significant crosswind, on all the jets I have flown single, twins and fours ,civil and military , I am indeed curious to know why some training departments are teaching NOT to use this technique. I have no Airbus experience, perhaps they have some reason because of their flyby wire system.

Anyone?

and yes, a strong crosswind at BHX can be very challenging because of the sometimes very strong turbulence created by the hangars upwind of the crosswind.

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 20th Jun 2020 at 09:15.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:26
  #53 (permalink)  

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Any training dept would be extremely courageous teaching a crosswind technique not recommended/approved by the manufacturer.

Someone with “crossed wires”...?
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:36
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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....and yes, a strong crosswind at BHX can be very challenging because of the sometimes very strong turbulence created by the hangars upwind of the crosswind.
Yes, especially on approach to RWY15. Good fun though, and an excellent place to practise and refine your crosswind landing technique.

That hump in the runway was in the worst place on RWY33 - I haven't landed there since they extended the runway, but from memory the hump used to be just around where you would touch down, so it was an extra challenge after coping with a turbulent crosswind approach.


Regarding controls after landing: Many years ago the local flying club used to hold full elevator up after landing C152's on its grass runway. This was to protect the delicate nose-wheel on the rough surface and give a bit of "aerodynamic braking" apparently. But one day an aircraft, slowing down on roll-out suddenly got airborne again owing to a strong gust and the full elevator-up. It got up to about 12' with no airspeed and crashed back down. The nose-gear collapsed and the prop drove into the ground. The two occupants were shaken but not hurt. I know because I helped wheel the broken aircraft across the airfield back to the hangar.

Last edited by Uplinker; 20th Jun 2020 at 08:57.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 09:09
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Kicking the nose straight works like a charm on the 737. Never flown the ATP, but it looks like these guys did a good job all the way to touchdown, then they forgot to fly the aircraft. I’m firmly in the «nose pointing down the runway when landing is a good thing» corner. Even more so when you are in the habit of landing on contaminated runways. And my ailerons will stay into the wind until I leave the runway.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 09:22
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Aligning the ac with runway works equally well on the 75 and 76, my last two aircraft.

It was always a pleasure to see a pilot smoothly aligning the aircraft with a nicely judged push on the rudder, simultaneously applyIng into wind aileron to counter the yaw/ roll coupling.

Glad to see Parkfell appreciates we ex RAF A2 QFIs !!

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 20th Jun 2020 at 12:19.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 10:39
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
Never seen anyone ‘kick off drift’


But it’s an unfortunate expression that should be retired to prevent it being attempted
Obviously haven’t flown a big jet!

I don’t intend to post more than this. If this aircraft had control problems they should never have attempted an approach in these conditions.

The camera has distorted nothing. Whoever was flying this aircraft needs to be retrained and definitely needs their training history looked at from gaining their first licence to now.

Absolutely shocking. To think I am sharing the skies with these people worries me.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 11:18
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve got >1200 hours on ATPs, over about 5 years. Not loads, but enough I think to have an opinion.

I don’t know how you get it this badly wrong flying this aeroplane.

The ATP has many shortcomings, but crosswind capability isn’t one of them. I can’t think off the top of my head an aeroplane I’d rather have in a limiting crosswind into a short runway.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 12:31
  #59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
I'd certainly call that a contol failure. As in a failure to control.
Hard to tell in the first vid but in the second as they are departing the centreline there is not only no sign of right rudder at all but a brief stab of left rudder (!!) as the left main gear lifts off but that's accompanied and followed by a protracted period of right-roll aileron - ie further lifting the flying port wing that continues as they stabilise parallel to the runway, but the swing reoccurs briefly as the large left aileron input remains in place and the port gear becomes unweighted again.. It's almost as though the crossed controls got crossed!
No wonder the swing and wing-lift immediately got worse after touchdown.
I saw that too, the right aileron input while the aircraft was going left and I think I know why.
As incredibly as it sounds, it's a classic (rookie!?) mistake of "driving" your aircraft once on the ground instead of keep flying it.
Aka literally using your yoke as a steering wheel like a car!

Don't laugh, I saw it happen a few times on Turbo Dak where the guy usually overwhelmed would do exactly that, start "driving it" trying to recover his yaw while the two mains are on the ground. Forgetting his rudder and everything else in the process... Which turns ugly and has the exact opposite effect intended.

To talk about the DC3T, your downward big sized aileron will pretty much act like an airbrake. Using your yoke the opposite way you want your aircraft going is actually a technic used to keep it centred during gusty crosswind landings. Depending on conditions, your ailerons can have as much power on steering than your rudder.

It takes some practice master it.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 12:41
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I know of a few captains who feel it should be prohibited to film aircraft with such intent as can be found in numerous locations on the British Isles

"do we go and film them in their places of work ...!!???"
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