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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Old 18th Jun 2020, 00:38
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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Not seen this here yet. The video will explain it far better than I could.


First try




Last try




avherald summary

A West Atlantic British Aerospace ATP, registration SE-MAO performing flight PT-425 from Guernsey,CI to Birmingham,EN (UK), was on approach to Birmingham's runway 33 in stormy conditions at 13:43L (12:43Z), when the aircraft touched down far down into the runway, began to veer left and lifted off again for a go around. The aircraft positioned for another approach to runway 33 about 15 minutes after the balked landing, touched down again, again began to veer left, departed the runway surface with all gear, rolled parallel to the runway and returned onto the runway surface after slowing down.

The aircraft departed Birmingham about 47.5 hours after landing.

Metars:
EGBB 221520Z 24015G26KT 190V280 CAVOK 17/04 Q1014=
EGBB 221450Z 23016KT 200V270 CAVOK 18/04 Q1014=
EGBB 221420Z 23015G25KT 190V260 9999 FEW040 18/04 Q1014=
EGBB 221350Z 23016G27KT 200V270 9999 FEW040 18/04 Q1013=
EGBB 221320Z 23018G31KT 190V280 CAVOK 18/04 Q1013=
EGBB 221250Z 24015G26KT 190V280 9999 SCT048 18/05 Q1013=
EGBB 221220Z 25015G25KT 210V280 9999 SCT048 17/05 Q1013=
EGBB 221150Z 23015G25KT 190V270 9999 SCT047 17/05 Q1013=
EGBB 221120Z 23016KT 200V270 9999 SCT046 18/05 Q1013=
EGBB 221050Z 23015G25KT 190V260 9999 SCT039 17/05 Q1012=
EGBB 221020Z 23014KT 200V260 9999 BKN042 17/05 Q1012=
EGBB 220950Z 24012KT 190V280 9999 SCT041 16/06 Q1012=
EGBB 220920Z 23014KT 190V270 9999 SCT039 16/06 Q1012=
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 06:13
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An unfortunate event. Clearly not an ex Loganair pilot who operate in those conditions ‘up North’ frequently.

ATP demonstrated crosswind limits : 34kts Dry, 25kts Wet.

Last edited by parkfell; 18th Jun 2020 at 07:36.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 06:38
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I'm guessing that the passengers were rendered speechless.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 06:46
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I guess the cargo ( mail?) was speechless even before the final landing.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 07:29
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Looking at the metar, doesn’t seem that bad. Be interesting to see the crew experience up front. Not sure how much the rudder deflects in normal operation but looking at those videos, doesn’t seem to be doing an awful lot.

They’re lucky the ground wasn’t soft or they might have ended up minus some undercarriage when they ‘re- entered’ the runway.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 08:24
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Originally Posted by Atlantic Explorer View Post
Not sure how much the rudder deflects in normal operation but looking at those videos, doesn’t seem to be doing an awful lot..
Nor do the ailerons. To be fair to crews, a lot of training departments tell crews not to apply into wind aileron, but whenever it gets badly out of shape, as it does here, it's nearly always the UPWIND wing that lifts, precipitating a loss of directional control. If nothing else, kicking off the drift has the secondary dihedral effect of lifting the upwind wing. Much better to come into the the flare with a bit of roll input and be ready for more, then up to full aileron after touchdown.
​​​​
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 08:41
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Rudder, Rudder, RUDDER!

They never cancelled the drift, the a/c was pointing in the wrong direction most of the time.

If the wind was too strong, go somewhere more into wind (EMA?).

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Old 18th Jun 2020, 08:45
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Originally Posted by Atlantic Explorer View Post
Looking at the metar, doesn’t seem that bad..
The reported wind and the actual wind can be very different at Birmingham. When it was still open the wind at Coventry was a better indication of what the wind was really doing at BHX. It is not unusual to see the three windsocks alongside the runway all pointing in different directions as the buildings behind them make it even more turbulent.Once in the flare the runway falling away beneath you due to the waves built into doesn’t help either.

Last edited by tubby linton; 18th Jun 2020 at 09:56.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 09:09
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I learned and refined my crosswind technique on that runway, both 33 and 15, while based at EGBB in a variety of turboprops and jets. As you say, Tubby; when the wind is from the west, it can be very challenging, and that hump in the runway does not help.

These conditions did not look too bad, but I was not in the cockpit, so cannot say. What they did not appear to do on either landing attempt was to yaw the aircraft straight by pushing the rudder immediately before touching down?

Rudder failure maybe? Rudder limiter stuck? (Although if it were, then an into-wind runway should be sought out).

I have never flown the ATP, but in crosswinds on other turboprops, transferring from crab approach to wing down (crossed controls), approach at, say, 1nm can be helpful.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 09:22
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Nor do the ailerons. To be fair to crews, a lot of training departments tell crews not to apply into wind aileron, but whenever it gets badly out of shape, as it does here, it's nearly always the UPWIND wing that lifts, precipitating a loss of directional control. If nothing else, kicking off the drift has the secondary dihedral effect of lifting the upwind wing. Much better to come into the the flare with a bit of roll input and be ready for more, then up to full aileron after touchdown.
​​​​
The Operator’s Manual (OM) specify the definitive technique to be used in a crosswind.

The phrase “kicking off” the drift is somewhat misleading, and likely to actually cause problems.

One technique to consider:
You apply (I prefer “squeeze”) rudder to align the aircraft with the centreline and simultaneous apply opposite aileron to prevent the secondary effect of yaw. You might even apply up to 5° degrees of roll into wind.

This technique commences probably as you commence the flare and closing the throttles.

On touchdown increase the into wind aileron input as required, and apply forward pressure on the control column to improve the nose wheel steering capability.

You might get the other pilot to hold the control column in place until taxi speed?
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 10:04
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Right aileron input

You can see how just after touchdown and throughout the veering off to the left, there’s a right aileron input.

Crew must’ve had a brain fart of sorts.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 11:14
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Good god, just imagine if that accident had been filmed in Asia, Africa or any other part of the world?

The forum would be in uproar (rightly so) questioning the pilots abilities and decision making.

But being a European airline in the UK? Meh. No one bats an eyelid.

Unreal
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 11:15
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 11:24
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Originally Posted by 750XL View Post

...........But being a European airline in the UK? Meh. No one bats an eyelid.

Unreal
I think that you will find that a number of “eyelids have been raised”.

Start with the UK CAA and the FOI conversations with the operator in particular their training department.
The UK AAIB will be investigating this event and a report will be issued in due course.

”No one bats an eyelid” is simply not true, and given the very recent posting earlier today, further comments will invariably follow.

What is important is that in common with all other accidents/events/incidents lessons are learnt and you reduce the risk of such events in the future.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 11:52
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
The UK AAIB will be investigating this event and a report will be issued in due course.
What makes you think that ?
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 12:01
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It mentions that the AAIB are currently using the video as part of their investigations in the description of the second video so one presumes they may have contacted the owner.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 12:03
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The AAIB is not in my experience what it once was.

Like many other bits of the industry a bit too close these days to the manufacturers and airlines.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 14:43
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Unless this airplane had a flight control malfunction, there is no way that should have happened. I don't care what the winds were doing at any windsock.
That was amateur hour (with all due respect to the amateurs).
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 16:12
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Originally Posted by Nil further View Post
The AAIB is not in my experience what it once was.

Like many other bits of the industry a bit too close these days to the manufacturers and airlines.
Load of tosh
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 16:45
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Originally Posted by 750XL View Post
Good god, just imagine if that accident had been filmed in Asia, Africa or any other part of the world?

The forum would be in uproar (rightly so) questioning the pilots abilities and decision making.

But being a European airline in the UK? Meh. No one bats an eyelid.

Unreal
Perhaps you might like to take a look at ‘avherald.com’ as to various adverse comments now appearing.

Somewhat critical I would suggest irrespective of what part of world it occurs and by whom.

“No one bats an eyelid” ? I think not.
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