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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 1st Jun 2020, 01:12
  #941 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twitter View Post
In another life I did maintenance test flights which demanded, on lift off an engine to idle to check some flight guidance items, gear up and then a descent to check emergency thrust increase etc. Not only did this look awful from the cockpit and the tower (who had been informed in advance) but it set off a barrel load of aural warnings and red indicators.

Even with a meticulous preparation this scenario came as quite a shock - all the warnings from Hell, at the same time. It helps me, in a way to understand the reactions to blatant warnings in this case - and also the 737 Max departures - which were for sure not so planned for.

Warnings have their limitations. Only good procedures and discipline could have kept this crew from deteriorating into the chambers of Hell, where reason and experience no longer work. If there is a lesson here, it is not to get outside the envelope in the first place - and if you do, do everything possible to get back inside it before continuing.
I’m not sure you are being 100%. Ive never heard of any kind of FC that requires an engine to idle at liftoff. Some turbo props have auto feather and the crj 200 has auto increase in thrust, but these aren’t checked on a test flight, right after “liftoff”.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 04:01
  #942 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mgggpilot View Post
Both you and Nightstop are right. Depends how far are you from the airport. You can't slow down flaps, gear down 100miles from field even if you are 4,000ft or above higher.
Spot on Mggg Botom line: demands the "youknowwhatyouaredoingfactor"....
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 05:34
  #943 (permalink)  
 
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Potentially an undiagnosed Covid-19 infection in the cockpit could result in crew loss of capacity and be a contributory factor. No doubt this will be tested for by the investigators. Should all operating crews be antigen tested before every flight?

Last edited by he1iaviator; 1st Jun 2020 at 06:55. Reason: Clarity
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 06:01
  #944 (permalink)  
 
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So heavily dosed on medication? Now we’re getting into the realm of the absurd, or perhaps not, but this is Rumours & News, so let’s go one further and ask if, as with the case of the mysterious Malaysian pilot, they might not have spent lockdown playing games on a flight simulator. This could account for the matter-of-factness and lack of alarm in the quiet dreamy voice we hear on the recording.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 1st Jun 2020 at 06:26.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 07:23
  #945 (permalink)  
 
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Parkfell

"ROD ? In reverse centre engine.."

The Trident could use reverse on the outer engines in flight. Although people speak nostalgically of RoDs of 12000+, clearly the risk of catching up the cabin had to be considered. However, it did make it easier to reduce speed and height simultaneously.
It has to be stressed that in a hot and high situation close to the airport, gradient is more important than losing height at high speeed.
As a corollary, in a visual circuit there is never any point in proceeding downwind at high speed past the airport.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 07:28
  #946 (permalink)  
 
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When I first started with an Airline on the B737 it was a matter of pride to be able to keep the speed on till late as possible , flap on schedule and thrust up and stable at 500’. Easiest way to get down was 320 knots and speed brake. Then hold your nerve. As long as your below profile everything is sweet. Today impossible. 250 knots below 10,000 and other even more restrictive company limits killed it. Obvious advantage is no more pesky QAR squawks but major, major downside nobody under the age of 40 has any idea of what the aircraft can do. Maybe not an issue if all you want to do is keep line flying nice and simple but a real problem when a crew finds themselves outside the envelope. I’ve seen perfectly competent crew hit the tilt switch when taken outside their comfort zone. Not their faulty , they’ve just never been allowed to experience it. But thats the brave new world.......
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 07:54
  #947 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
When I first started with an Airline on the B737 it was a matter of pride to be able to keep the speed on till late as possible , flap on schedule and thrust up and stable at 500’. Easiest way to get down was 320 knots and speed brake. Then hold your nerve. As long as your below profile everything is sweet. Today impossible. 250 knots below 10,000 and other even more restrictive company limits killed it. Obvious advantage is no more pesky QAR squawks but major, major downside nobody under the age of 40 has any idea of what the aircraft can do. Maybe not an issue if all you want to do is keep line flying nice and simple but a real problem when a crew finds themselves outside the envelope. I’ve seen perfectly competent crew hit the tilt switch when taken outside their comfort zone. Not their faulty , they’ve just never been allowed to experience it. But thats the brave new world.......
I think that pride you speak of may have been this crews end.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 08:07
  #948 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
I think that pride you speak of may have been this crews end.
Two crews can be in exactly the same position and the outcomes diametrically opposite.
I have noticed a big change over the last 30 years in how comfortable individuals are in the aircraft.
Personally, once the doors are closed I’m in my element. Love it. But I cant say the same of many of the younger generation.
Too much cookie-cutter training. Not enough flying the aircraft. Not enough passion for flying.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 08:21
  #949 (permalink)  
 
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When I first started with an Airline on the B737 it was a matter of pride to be able to keep the speed on till late as possible , flap on schedule and thrust up and stable at 500’. Easiest way to get down was 320 knots and speed brake. Then hold your nerve.
On a line check you had to do the same thing but do it using the autopilot because it was assumed that you knew how to actually fly.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 08:22
  #950 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus flight from Karachi to Le Bourget is en route. Presently over the med, expected to land at 1130Z. They have the cvr and dfdr on board. flight number is AIB1889. Read out is going to start tomorrow..
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 08:35
  #951 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Airbus flight from Karachi to Le Bourget is en route. Presently over the med, expected to land at 1130Z. They have the cvr and dfdr on board. flight number is AIB1889. Read out is going to start tomorrow..
Let's hope they remember to put the gear down...
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 08:54
  #952 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
..........Personally, once the doors are closed I’m in my element. Love it. But I cant say the same of many of the younger generation.
Too much cookie-cutter training. Not enough flying the aircraft. Not enough passion for flying.
The motivation behind the decision of young people to go flying continues to be questioned by those of a certain age. Passion often being one missing component.

The puppy farms as commercial outfits are really only interested in one thing ~ profit.

The ability to pay through the bank of Mum & Dad is often the case. They think of it as gaining ‘Status’ in society.

Depends upon the culture. Back in the 1990s, BAeFC trained Cathay students from Hong Kong ethnic Chinese only. There was difficulty getting recruits from time to time, as the ‘status’ was regarded similar to that of a taxi or bus driver.

My view is that pilots are best able to choose prospective pilots, not HR, or ‘recruitment experts’.
There are a number of what appears to be innocent questions which in reality are the ‘under arm test’.
Mental arithmetic for a start.
Q.1 what is the square root of 81?
Q.2 what is the cube of 9?

Old fashioned ~ Moi?
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 09:59
  #953 (permalink)  
 
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Slowing an aircraft down - it is a matter of energy levels. High speed and high altitude aircraft possess an abundance of both Kinetic and Potential energy. As profile drag increases as the square of IAS, then increasing drag (Speedbrakes, etc) at high speed will destroy more energy than it will at lower speeds. Slowing the aircraft down and then using speed brakes will not have as much effect as using the speed brakes at high speed before reducing.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:05
  #954 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
Mental arithmetic for a start.
Q.1 what is the square root of 81?
Q.2 what is the cube of 9?

Old fashioned ~ Moi?
That would result in a huge pilot shortage. Today you can be happy if those questions can be answered with the use of a pocket calculator.
Ballpark mental arithmetic was necessary in the slide rule time, because it did not give you the decimal magnitude.
SA and having the „big“ picture or at least some idea to analyse a situation or measurement is difficult to teach. And still you learn every day something new.

But I don‘t think that the median intelligence deteriorated a lot. It is more the problem of your memory that glorifies the past.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:13
  #955 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
So heavily dosed on medication? Now we’re getting into the realm of the absurd, or perhaps not, but this is Rumours & News, so let’s go one further and ask if, as with the case of the mysterious Malaysian pilot, they might not have spent lockdown playing games on a flight simulator. This could account for the matter-of-factness and lack of alarm in the quiet dreamy voice we hear on the recording.
I read that a significant number of Covid-19 patients have no visible symptoms of the disease, no fever, no cough, no breathlessness, but they are found to have an extremely low blood oxygen saturation level. Combine this with increased cabin altitude and the result could easily be hypoxia and reduced capacity to function. That could account for one hole in the cheese, but of course not why the other pilot didn't take corrective action.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:21
  #956 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
That would result in a huge pilot shortage. Today you can be happy if those questions can be answered with the use of a pocket calculator.
Ballpark mental arithmetic was necessary in the slide rule time, because it did not give you the decimal magnitude.
SA and having the „big“ picture or at least some idea to analyse a situation or measurement is difficult to teach. And still you learn every day something new.

But I don‘t think that the median intelligence deteriorated a lot. It is more the problem of your memory that glorifies the past.
So you are told to descend to FL180 to be level 20 before **** . Are you saying that you would get a calculator out? Even programming the FMS takes time which could result in a late descent. A quick mental calculation while looking out of the cockpit; - do I need to go down now then start descent and programme FMS on the way down or; I do not need to descend now so programme FMS first.

My grandson is thinking of becoming a pilot and I am instilling in him the necessity to practice and practice and practice his mental arithmetic. If he makes any calculation using a calculator then he must do a mental gross error check. For instance when buying fuel in US Gallons and then converting to Litres/KG and Pounds it is all too easy to get the digit in the wrong place.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:49
  #957 (permalink)  
 
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Fatigue

Regarding fatigue risk assessment, does anybody knows about this crew duty on that day, as well as previous ones. I'm talking not only about days before that but also the monthly roster, because due to shortened flights, being out of the flight deck for a long period can be an issue sometimes.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 10:57
  #958 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PaulH1 View Post
Slowing an aircraft down - it is a matter of energy levels. High speed and high altitude aircraft possess an abundance of both Kinetic and Potential energy. As profile drag increases as the square of IAS, then increasing drag (Speedbrakes, etc) at high speed will destroy more energy than it will at lower speeds. Slowing the aircraft down and then using speed brakes will not have as much effect as using the speed brakes at high speed before reducing.
The art of flying requires controlling all factors in the equation . . .
You need to chew gum and walk at the same time…
learner . . .
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 11:33
  #959 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by PaulH1 View Post
So you are told to descend to FL180 to be level 20 before **** . Are you saying that you would get a calculator out? Even programming the FMS takes time which could result in a late descent. A quick mental calculation while looking out of the cockpit; - do I need to go down now then start descent and programme FMS on the way down or; I do not need to descend now so programme FMS first.

My grandson is thinking of becoming a pilot and I am instilling in him the necessity to practice and practice and practice his mental arithmetic. If he makes any calculation using a calculator then he must do a mental gross error check. For instance when buying fuel in US Gallons and then converting to Litres/KG and Pounds it is all too easy to get the digit in the wrong place.
Hope you grandson is progressing well with his sums. The old saying ‘garbage in, garbage out’.
Paper One of the Scottish SQA maths exams, for NAT5 (‘O’ level / GCSE) is without calculators.
Paper Two allows calculators.

The final comment probably three years ago, somewhat tongue in cheek(?), by the Chief Training Captain of a well known National Airline to a group of us MPL simulator instructors was
“if nothing else, at least make sure they know how to multiply and divide by three before they leave you.....”.
A quiet chuckle went around the room.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 12:23
  #960 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by he1iaviator View Post
I read that a significant number of Covid-19 patients have no visible symptoms of the disease, no fever, no cough, no breathlessness, but they are found to have an extremely low blood oxygen saturation level.
Where did you read that? And exactly what percentage is a "significant number"? I think the combination you are talking about (low blood oxygen, and NO other symptoms) is probably negligible.
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