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Extinction Rebellion are threatening to shut down Heathrow Airport with drones

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Extinction Rebellion are threatening to shut down Heathrow Airport with drones

Old 1st Jun 2019, 05:52
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Hard to prove either way...

for mere mortals like myself, we are limited to books, newspapers, online sites etc. they keep using the phrase, “since records have been kept.” as the foundation for all their conclusions. From my limited span of awareness, approximately 50 years of paying attention, I haven’t seen much myself. But from reading books totally unrelated to the subject, I do have a few questions. The dinosaurs were extinguished by a climate change, weren’t they? Even before then, there was a drastic climate change, wasn’t there? And in the forward of a book about the Spanish Armada, there was a sentence stating that that particular summer was one of the hottest ever known, but that was before proper records were kept, and that being one of the many reasons we don’t all speak Spanish. My books are packed up for moving, but I personally have purchased quite a few scientific tomes which state that this climate change we are seeing is much more complicated than what airplanes can affect. Are the papers wrong that say that livestock produces more CO2 than all transportation combined?

So few of us have the ability to really examine this subject independently. That’s why I can’t personally tell anyone they’re right or wrong, but don’t condemn us who are not convinced by the flavour of the month, year, decade looming disaster. We have seen too many falsehoods in papers, books and governments to be easily convinced.

yes, let’s try to reduce carbon pollution, but drones at an airport should be dealt with very harshly. Just think, Emma Thompson might be on one of those flights and her speech at the protest might be delayed!!!
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 06:49
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At the end of the last ice age, temperatures were only 4 degrees lower, but Boston USA was buried under a mile of ice. 4 degrees higher than today, the Amazon will catch light.

If we want to keep the earth a nice place to live, we've got a very narrow temperature range. We're one degree up already and accelerating fast. Hence the reason why not only tree-huggers, but sensible people in engineering and aviation, are a bit concerned.

If this doesn't make you think, nothing will.


Earth temperature timeline

Last edited by PerPurumTonantes; 1st Jun 2019 at 07:31.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 07:07
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Originally Posted by edi_local
No one has the right to violently and deliberately disrupt people going about their daily lives peacefully.

​​
First, there’s no plan for any violence that I can see.

Second, those people are not going about their daily lives peacefully. They’re wrecking the planet. Waving banners hasn’t worked. As a professional aviator who has studied the science on this, I’m truly ashamed of my industry and its head-in-the-sand attitude.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 07:24
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If they couldn't find the owners/operators of one drone at Gatwick, how the hell are they going to find numerous drones at Heathrow?
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 07:48
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It seems to me that the most plausible operator of the drone at Gatwick was the company who subsequently, in very short order, sold many millions of dollars of "anti-drone" systems.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 07:49
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Originally Posted by six string
Just think, Emma Thompson might be on one of those flights and her speech at the protest might be delayed!!!
Emma Thompson. What a tool. Interestingly, what she did sums up everybody's attitude, which is "it's somebody else's problem".

Pax: "the plane was going anyway". USA government: "Look at China". China: "We're making your stuff, it's your carbon". Aviation industry: "Aviation is only 3.5% of global warming". Car driver: "One person flying to Brazil is the same as me driving for a year. Stop people flying to Brazil then I'll think about giving up my car". The boss of a coal power station: "We're only 0.05% of global warming and we provide 200 jobs".

Everyone has this amazing ability to justify why they shouldn't change their lives, it should be somebody else. But the only way to fix this is massive action, from everyone. Aviation included.

‘If everyone does a little, we’ll achieve only a little’ - David McKay
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 08:01
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Originally Posted by TheiC

First, there’s no plan for any violence that I can see.

Second, those people are not going about their daily lives peacefully. They’re wrecking the planet. Waving banners hasn’t worked. As a professional aviator who has studied the science on this, I’m truly ashamed of my industry and its head-in-the-sand attitude.
Check out the days of Trident, 727, 707 etc and see the exhaust and then compare with the 380, 787 350 of today and tell me that the industry has its head in the sand, hasn't progressed. Check out the vehicles on the ramp on many airports, all electric or low carbon emissions. Presumably as a professional aviator who has studied the science of this you could offer an alternative to we luddites. Actually, don't because the world is full of arm chair scientists who know better. If anyone thinks that daily life can be changed in these idiots timeline then they are as unrealistic as this mob of - (censored)
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 08:47
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Originally Posted by Gove N.T.
If anyone thinks that daily life can be changed in these idiots timeline then they are as unrealistic as this mob of - (censored)
The point is that within the lifetime of younger people now alive if mankind doesn't change its daily life quite dramatically then nature will force less welcome changes upon us anyway.

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Old 1st Jun 2019, 10:13
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Originally Posted by Gove N.T.
Check out the days of Trident, 727, 707 etc and see the exhaust and then compare with the 380, 787, 350 of today and tell me that the industry has its head in the sand, hasn't progressed.
To be fair, I don't think the industry is smugly patting itself on the back for being able to build aircraft that are quieter and cleaner than those of 50 years ago - that's hardly an ambitious target.

Anyway that's only half of the issue - as alluded to by previous posters, it's also a question of volume. Certainly noise and emissions per flight have reduced significantly over the years, but that's been offset by a roughly 30x increase in global RPKs over the same period.

Clearly, if aviation's net contribution (in absolute terms) to global emissons is not to increase, then either continuing improvements in technology have to at least keep pace with traffic growth and/or the latter has to be subject to constraints. It's not rocket science.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 11:42
  #50 (permalink)  

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Emma Thompson. What a tool. Interestingly, what she did sums up everybody's attitude, which is "it's somebody else's problem".
But she made a point that she often flies economy - they obviously turn the gas down for her seat.

And she plants lots of trees. So what? You should see how many weeds grow in my garden!
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 12:24
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They would be more believable if ER closed the M25/M4 interchange and stopped the unnecessary vehicle trips instead!
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 12:47
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clipstone1
well arrest them all and fine them £50k each, that'll stop them
What will happen if the individual concerned does not have £ 50K of cash available to pay the fine you propose??

A third runway at Heathrow will not end humanity
Very true but also true that humanity can probably manage without the third runway.....

.
Originally Posted by Gove N.T.
If anyone thinks that daily life can be changed in these idiots timeline then they are as unrealistic as this mob of - (censored
Wonder why describe them as "idiots" ?? Ever thought they could be correct in what they say?




Last edited by Planemike; 1st Jun 2019 at 13:35.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:10
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Let’s assume ,without prejudice ,that all the hyperbole about climate change is true.
What is more intriguing is why anybody in the UK assumes that their hand wringing has any impact whatsoever in the rest of the world.
Memories of Empire?
Relevance deprivation syndrome?
The Guardian?
Decisions made in Beijing, Washington, New Delhi and Jakarta will shape the world, not those in London.
These protesters need to get out more.

Last edited by George Glass; 1st Jun 2019 at 14:33.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:13
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I think it will be a damp squib, there will be none of the touchy feely policing that happened in central London, skateboarding and dancing with protestors sanctioned by Sadiq Khan, the bye laws and responsibly for policing around Heathrow is out with his control.

when threatened with life imprisonment and / or a million pound fine (max sentence under law) backed up by police allowed to do their job and their “courage” Will soon melt away (who can forget the tears by the teenagers last time they tried it.)

the third runway will never happen anyway.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 14:27
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Originally Posted by TheiC

First, there’s no plan for any violence that I can see.

Second, those people are not going about their daily lives peacefully. They’re wrecking the planet. Waving banners hasn’t worked. As a professional aviator who has studied the science on this, I’m truly ashamed of my industry and its head-in-the-sand attitude.
As we have seen with previous environmental protests things turn violent quickly. There were over 1000 arrests in London last month.

And I'm sorry but air travellers are going about Thier daily life peacefully. You should be more ashamed of those wishing to cause mass disruption to your industry by trying to force Thier way of life on innocent passengers. And innocent they lost certainly are. You don't expect to be loaded with guilt and accused of wrecking the planet when you need to fly somewhere. Do you know each passenger personally? Do you know the measures they take at home to reduce Thier carbon footprints? I fly often but I don't own a car and recycle, reuse and repair to the point of having OCD about it. I cycle, walk and limit my plastic use as much as possible, do I deserve to be accused of wrecking the planet? Will you personally tell people who miss funerals, family events or even important meetings that it's good they were delayed?

And say the banner wavers get Thier wish and UK air travel is curtailed. Who will employ those who lose their jobs? Who will compensate those who relied on air travel for Thier own personal or professional life? Will air travel curtailment solve the rivers of plastic in SE Asia or the coal factories turning the sky black in China?

​​​​
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 15:08
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Debunked:...Again, hate to sound like a broken record but...:
And so do I. Without derailing this thread much more, I believe all points of view should remain heard, to include yours. But to me, "debunking" a point is more a emotional trait than a scientific trait. I prefer to stick with science.

Water Vapor: As of April 19th, NASA states:
"Water vapor is also the most important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. [...] Thus, water vapor is a second source of warmth (in addition to sunlight) at the Earth's surface."
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/global-maps/MYDAL2_M_SKY_WV

CO2: While CO2 percentage wise is the 2nd largest greenhouse gas it pales in effect to methane and nitrous oxide, the 3rd and 4th greenhouse gases. Methane has up to 80 times the "global warming potential" than CO2 and N2O has about 25 times than CO2. Per NASA:
"Methane makes up just 0.00018 percent of the atmosphere, compared to 0.039 percent for carbon dioxide. (CO2 is roughly 200 times more abundant.) Yet scientists attribute about one-sixth of recent global warming to methane emissions; what methane lacks in volume it makes up for in potency."
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/fe...MethaneMatters
.
And since you chose not to "debunk" the natural increase in population as a direct link to climate change, allow me to provide this. A recent study of human climate effects in the 1500-1600s found that the loss of 50+ million indignant peoples in the Americas caused a .15 C decrease in global air temperatures and lead to the start of the Little Ice Age. I don't believe anybody was burning fossil fuels on a large scale back then. So the current hypothesis is if 50 million people created a .15 C temperature increase by simply existing, how much of the current .8 C increase in the last 150 years can be attributed to the 6 billion population increase in that same time frame? But we won't have to wait long as there are a number of scientific studies looking at that same question. Strange though, one doesn't see this side on mainstream media... Cheers!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...77379118307261
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 15:59
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Originally Posted by George Glass
Let’s assume ,without prejudice ,that all the hyperbole about climate change is true.
What is more intriguing is why anybody in the UK assumes that their hand wringing has any impact whatsoever in the rest of the world.
Memories of Empire?
Relevance deprivation syndrome?
The Guardian?
Decisions made in Beijing, Washington, New Delhi and Jakarta will shape the world, not those in London.
These protesters need to get out more.
Eh? This is a global movement amongst youngsters who will (hope to) live long enough for the consequences of continuing the way we have been to impact them substantially.

Here are the forthcoming events in Australia (since that's where you appear to be): https://ausrebellion.earth/events/
Here are the local groups in the US (scroll down): https://extinctionrebellion.us/
Here is the home of Extinction Rebellion in India: https://www.facebook.com/ExtinctionRebellionIndians/
In China any public expression of disquiet is stamped down very hard very fast (next Tuesday marks the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre), so it will take time.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 16:03
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Originally Posted by edi_local
As we have seen with previous environmental protests things turn violent quickly. There were over 1000 arrests in London last month.​​​​
As far as I can tell essentially none of these were for violence of any sort. Could you point me to any reputable news sources showing otherwise?

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Old 1st Jun 2019, 16:10
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Originally Posted by Paul852
Eh? This is a global movement amongst youngsters

Here are the forthcoming events in Australia (since that's where you appear to be): https://ausrebellion.earth/events/
Here are the local groups in the US (scroll down): https://extinctionrebellion.us/
Here is the home of Extinction Rebellion in India: https://www.facebook.com/ExtinctionRebellionIndians/
In China any public expression of disquiet is stamped down very hard very fast (next Tuesday marks the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre), so it will take time.
This "movement amongst youngsters" seems to be very well organized. I believe there are quite a few "oldsters" behind those youngsters and I'd really like to know what their plans are.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 18:07
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A couple of disconnected points.
1. Isnt Heathrow in the wrong place for expansion with a long approach over the city? Probabilities are always there
2. The aircraft manufacturers are coming to an interesting point in history. Today the target is the cheapest to operate, not the least impact on the environment. Designing a plane to fly not stop to australia is probably having more of an impact than designing one with a max range of half that and breaking the journey in two. Certainly the empty weight of that ultra long range plane will affect its performance if used on shorter sectors. Everyone seems to be adding structural weight to allow for more range. Am glad Airbus dismissed supersonics.. Its still a free market . At some point some change be it taxation on fuel or legislation will change things. I think the technical answers may exist but how you change an international market is beyond me.
3. I do not support the direct action of these people but I dont feel the issues are being progressed. What should these people do to make their concern heard?
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