Another A380 Woe?
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And, to me, they appear to be holding off of Westcott (indeed near Aylesbury) at FL130, 180KIAS.
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appear to be holding off of Westcott (indeed near Aylesbury) at FL130, 180KIAS
It was a Pratt JT9D powered B767-200 (not a particularly fine engine BTW. I hate to tell you, but your operative words in your quote above weren't just hedgy, they just weren't true. I know because a co-worker of mine was on that aircraft and said the silence was eerie. The pilot who operated the switches did so without looking, the memory of his flying 727s and switch positions was etched in his mind. The CF6-80 had the quickest start time compared to the JT9s or RB211s, the RBs being the slowest. The Aircraft was within 300 feet of the ocean when the first CF6-80 started and began to generate enough power to begin a slow climb out. The pilots flew the aircraft on to Cincinnati, never explaining to the frightened passengers what happened.
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I don't think either of us engineers ever suggested dual thrust loss is somehow fine. The only dual engine thrust loss that I recall happened on a Boeing 767 out of LA when the pilots on the pointy end accidentally shut off the fuel flow to the engines. It was a new aircraft to them at the time having transitioned from the Boeing 727. Luckily, the CF6-80 engines restarted quickly before the aircraft hit the sea.
I believe there have been a half-dozen cases of dual engine thrust lost on the 767 alone.
Air Canada certainly has the primacy claim with the world famous Gimli Glider:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
I know because a co-worker of mine was on that aircraft and said the silence was eerie. The pilot who operated the switches did so without looking, the memory of his flying 727s and switch positions was etched in his mind. The CF6-80 had the quickest start time compared to the JT9s or RB211s, the RBs being the slowest. The Aircraft was within 300 feet of the ocean when the first CF6-80 started and began to generate enough power to begin a slow climb out. The pilots flew the aircraft on to Cincinnati, never explaining to the frightened passengers what happened.
Turbine D & tdracer: respectfully, you both must be engineers if you can so blithely dismiss these serious engine issues as “temporary thrust losses and engine damage”. What you both are elucidating is called “the normalization of deviance” when you suggest that dual thrust loss is somehow fine, especially so if it’s just temporary.
But then I re-read the above and realized I know your type, and I'd just be wasting my time.
Welcome to my ignore list...
Last edited by tdracer; 7th Nov 2018 at 06:03.
OK, I'll bite one more time...
You're both right - there were two events on the 767 where the pilots shutdown both engines immediately after takeoff. One was JT9D-7R4, one was the CF6-80A. The first event was the JT9D (UAL sounds right but I'm not 100% positive) - one engine restarted, the other went into a non-recoverable stall. The pilot circled back around and landed right away on the one good engine. After that event the general feeling was that the pilot was an idiot for making such a silly mistake. Then the second event occurred, which was the CF6 out of LA which continued on to Cinci with the RAT merrily buzzing away.
That's when we realized we had a serious problem and the EEC switches were relocated to the overhead - with the infamous 'half a broomstick' interim fix.
You're both right - there were two events on the 767 where the pilots shutdown both engines immediately after takeoff. One was JT9D-7R4, one was the CF6-80A. The first event was the JT9D (UAL sounds right but I'm not 100% positive) - one engine restarted, the other went into a non-recoverable stall. The pilot circled back around and landed right away on the one good engine. After that event the general feeling was that the pilot was an idiot for making such a silly mistake. Then the second event occurred, which was the CF6 out of LA which continued on to Cinci with the RAT merrily buzzing away.
That's when we realized we had a serious problem and the EEC switches were relocated to the overhead - with the infamous 'half a broomstick' interim fix.
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Original Post by Commander Taco
Your collective attitude is reminiscent of the Challenger Disaster - IE: "We don't know enough about the behaviour of the O-rings in subzero weather but nothing has ever happened before so let's launch anyway". We all know how that turned out and the resulting investigation led Professor Diane Vaughan to say:
Quote:
"Social normalization of deviance means that people within the organization become so much accustomed to a deviant behavior that they don't consider it as deviant, despite the fact that they far exceed their own rules for the elementary safety"
Your collective attitude is reminiscent of the Challenger Disaster - IE: "We don't know enough about the behaviour of the O-rings in subzero weather but nothing has ever happened before so let's launch anyway". We all know how that turned out and the resulting investigation led Professor Diane Vaughan to say:
Quote:
"Social normalization of deviance means that people within the organization become so much accustomed to a deviant behavior that they don't consider it as deviant, despite the fact that they far exceed their own rules for the elementary safety"
Last edited by Turbine D; 7th Nov 2018 at 13:53. Reason: added a sentence
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The UK papers find some details
"I'LL BA BACK
Arnold Schwarzenegger suffers mid-air scare on British Airways flight after an engine problemThe former Governor of California was said to be 'shaken' after the flight to Los Angeles was forced to turn back to Heathrow due to technical problems
"I'LL BA BACK
Arnold Schwarzenegger suffers mid-air scare on British Airways flight after an engine problemThe former Governor of California was said to be 'shaken' after the flight to Los Angeles was forced to turn back to Heathrow due to technical problems
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Could be anything on a four engine engine jet.
Flying as cabin crew years ago I was on the flight deck of a 744 when the two first officers were discussing an engine shutdown due to an oil quantity warning... 4 hours from LHR, but routine enough that they weren't going to wake the captain from rest.
Flying as cabin crew years ago I was on the flight deck of a 744 when the two first officers were discussing an engine shutdown due to an oil quantity warning... 4 hours from LHR, but routine enough that they weren't going to wake the captain from rest.
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In French I'm afraid....
Often rumoured, finally confirmed. Copious amounts of Gallic pride being spilled on TV news tonight as you might expect....
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...80-2224287.php
It might have been the whole fleet but, as I always understood it, AF actually own five frames, so probably are keeping them for the simple reason they can't find a buyer for those.
Often rumoured, finally confirmed. Copious amounts of Gallic pride being spilled on TV news tonight as you might expect....
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...80-2224287.php
It might have been the whole fleet but, as I always understood it, AF actually own five frames, so probably are keeping them for the simple reason they can't find a buyer for those.
In French I'm afraid....
Often rumoured, finally confirmed. Copious amounts of Gallic pride being spilled on TV news tonight as you might expect....
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...80-2224287.php
It might have been the whole fleet but, as I always understood it, AF actually own five frames, so probably are keeping them for the simple reason they can't find a buyer for those.
Often rumoured, finally confirmed. Copious amounts of Gallic pride being spilled on TV news tonight as you might expect....
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...80-2224287.php
It might have been the whole fleet but, as I always understood it, AF actually own five frames, so probably are keeping them for the simple reason they can't find a buyer for those.
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Very briefly -
They currently have 10 frames five owned, five leasedf
Smith, just come in from Air Canada, has approved the previous plan to cut the fleet to five.
Two frames going back to lessor in 2019
Five frames ( presumably those owned ) to have $ 45 million refit $ 45 million per frame !!!!! starting 2020
Nothing about the other three frames.
Rest of the article is a Video and a generic put down of A380 and why it hasn't been a success, although 330+ frames sounds pretty good to me
And a few brief details of operational problems ' last summer ' so maybe 2017 or 2018
They currently have 10 frames five owned, five leasedf
Smith, just come in from Air Canada, has approved the previous plan to cut the fleet to five.
Two frames going back to lessor in 2019
Five frames ( presumably those owned ) to have $ 45 million refit $ 45 million per frame !!!!! starting 2020
Nothing about the other three frames.
Rest of the article is a Video and a generic put down of A380 and why it hasn't been a success, although 330+ frames sounds pretty good to me
And a few brief details of operational problems ' last summer ' so maybe 2017 or 2018
although 330+ frames sounds pretty good to me
IIRC, the program was originally intended for a 250 unit breakeven, but that went out the window with various delays, cost overruns and redesigns, and uneconomic production rates.
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I never really ' followed ' the history of the 380 - at the time iit was all a bit ' so what ' as far as I was concerned.
But interesting question might be - Who has lost the most $$ so far....Boeing with the 748 or Airbus with the A380 ?
The other thing for those on here who might know about these things - what is the ' real cost ' of manufacture ( ie, without the added on R&D costs ) of interior panels, seats, carpets, AVOD, etc if AF are talking $ 45million per frame for a refit. Easy to believe that the F&F suppliers are probably the most profitable companies in avaiation.....
I don't know what mix AF might be planning, but typically the A380 is being targeted at the higher end traveler so I'd expect the mix to be strongly biased to First and Business.
The Korean A380 I rode on a few years back had the entire upper deck Business Class - 94 fancy lie-flat seats. At $250k per seat that's over $20 million just on the upper deck...
Easy to believe that the F&F suppliers are probably the most profitable companies in avaiation.....