Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Ryanair pilot strike

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Ryanair pilot strike

Old 6th Nov 2018, 00:51
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Exit stage right.
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by SigWit
Firstly, something to keep in mind is the fact that workers have a lot of rights in the Netherlands. That may be the reason that some of the rulings may sound strange to foreigners.

One of the rights is the right to strike. For a judge the reason doesn't really matter, if a strike is a legal one the striking employees may not face ANY negative consequences.
(other then not getting paid for the days that they where striking). In this case no judge forbid the strike, so it is a legal one and whatever the demands were, it may not have negative consequences.

Big issue is also the fact that this is civil right. Unlike criminal law, it is way more lenient with proof. For example: The pilots claimed that the closure is due to the strikes. Ryanair claims it is due to economic reason but fails to prove so. Thus the judge rules that the closure is due to the strike (also based on letters send earlier by Ryanair stating that they will close the base if strikes occur, not so smart).

This is actually how the law works in The Netherlands, with a lot of protection for the workers, not so much for the companies. We will have to wait and see what happens when Ryanair declares those pilots redundant and goes to court. Your guess is as good as mine in that respect
An option that has not been considered here is Ryanair still pay their Eindhoven based people and ask them to turn up for work...................... however there is no work for them so they just sit around all day long. They required to be there as place of work where Ryanair control what is allowed in the crew room with a Ryanair staff manager in control.

Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere. Employers may have a different viewpoint.
EIN staff win but being in crew rooms daily where you know you will never fly will take its own toll on health and well being.

In Ryanair's case it can afford the financial cost because it would be sending a message to everywhere else but could the individuals ?
racedo is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 01:25
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by racedo
Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere.
however. accprding to a previous post:
In the verdict on the first of November, the judge has already stated that the base closure is not a proven result of economic reason, but suspectibly done because of the strikes. He sees the closure as a misuse of power.
He has ruled the pilots will have to stay based in Eindhoven, get their salary, and maintain their currency.
MarcK is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 01:33
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mosquitoville
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by racedo

Pilots will of course NOT be free to fly for someone else, they still get paid. After 2 years what is a pilot worth, who hasn't flown commerically in 2 years, no Sim time, in a standoff with their employer and are they "employable" elsewhere. Employers may have a different viewpoint.
?
Didn't the ruling say Ryanair was responsible for keeping the pilots current?

Last edited by Sorry Dog; 6th Nov 2018 at 01:35. Reason: redundant post...
Sorry Dog is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 01:48
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
It did seem strange that a foreign court could get involved in the micromanagement of a company be it Ryanair or any other company which may face a similar issue. Very bad position for the crew unfortunately. Hopefully it works out in the end for them!
One could say that if they end up not working for Ryanair, then it’s worked out well for them.
EIFFS is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 03:20
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What would stop Ryanair sending each pilot out of base for 1 day a month for currency followed by 3 weeks sitting in a briefing room? Costly to keep everyone sitting around a briefing room on 12 hour standbys but with the profits they are making its small change.
flyingmed is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 06:34
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
What would stop Ryanair sending each pilot out of base for 1 day a month for currency followed by 3 weeks sitting in a briefing room? Costly to keep everyone sitting around a briefing room on 12 hour standbys but with the profits they are making its small change.
Nothing. As long as the pilots stay current, get their salary, and are based in Eindhoven, Ryanair complies with the court ruling.

If Ryanair loses the redundancy-courtcase, something like this will likely happen. They will always find a way to get back at people who tried to speak up, as a warning to others. They will never let the worker 'win'.
SigWit is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 12:58
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Exit stage right.
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by SigWit
Nothing. As long as the pilots stay current, get their salary, and are based in Eindhoven, Ryanair complies with the court ruling.

If Ryanair loses the redundancy-courtcase, something like this will likely happen. They will always find a way to get back at people who tried to speak up, as a warning to others. They will never let the worker 'win'.
Who has then "WON".

Ultimately Ryanair can justifiably close the base at a later date, they making substantial losses because of the costs associated with paying staff to do nothing.
This bit is easy to quantify but you have a lot of people who have been sat around 5 days a week for 2 years in a base doing nothing.
racedo is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 13:40
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by racedo
Who has then "WON".

Ultimately Ryanair can justifiably close the base at a later date, they making substantial losses because of the costs associated with paying staff to do nothing.
This bit is easy to quantify but you have a lot of people who have been sat around 5 days a week for 2 years in a base doing nothing.

Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'
flyingmed is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 14:31
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 45
Posts: 625
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'
That would probably require a judge how's blind, daft and suffering from alzheimers. It would be exceedingly easy for the other party to make the case, that any losses sustained at the base was a direct consequence of them having umpteen crewmembers sat around doing nothing, whilst having crew from other bases doing the flights. Keep in mind a judge has already heard the case where Ryanair was unable to make their points stick. Them coming back saying 'look, we're losing money now' would probably not, as they say, fly in a court of law. It would be even harder for Ryanair to prove EIN is loss making, when all they've done is reverse the flights, effectively still serving the market. Ryanair's only hope would then be to completely shut down all flying to/from EIN - an airport which by all accounts is turning them a healthy profit. THEN they could lay off all staff, but obviously only in accordance with Dutch law as has been outlined previously in this thread.
SMT Member is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 16:11
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Exit stage right.
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
Even just 1 month of doing this. They could simply show the money made across their network in different bases and then show the loss which would be made in Eindhoven. Would that then become enough of an economic problem to close the base?

Lets hope this doesn't happen but we all know Ryanair will be there to 'win'
A month is too short as can argue that this occurs in Wintertime on many bases, a year is a lot easier to justify at end of a full year while some would still want to go to court many would already want to move on. Leaving it as an all or nothing option means everybody is constrained by ones who want to continue fighting.

Shutting base completely is a perfectly valid option and exiting flying in there is a perfectly valid option as there are numerous cases where this has happened previously. Thes can be classified as business decisions.

I guess people need to think how reference would look assumming reference is "X employed from Y to Z at ABC base", an employer seeing Marc employed by Ryanair from Jan 2016 to Jan 2021 based at Eindhoven knowing he has not flown regularly for 2 years and part of a big dispute may just decide to go onto next CV.

Martyrs get lots of rhetoric in support but that doesn't make up for end of career.
racedo is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 16:13
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Exit stage right.
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by SMT Member
That would probably require a judge how's blind, daft and suffering from alzheimers. It would be exceedingly easy for the other party to make the case, that any losses sustained at the base was a direct consequence of them having umpteen crewmembers sat around doing nothing, whilst having crew from other bases doing the flights. Keep in mind a judge has already heard the case where Ryanair was unable to make their points stick. Them coming back saying 'look, we're losing money now' would probably not, as they say, fly in a court of law. It would be even harder for Ryanair to prove EIN is loss making, when all they've done is reverse the flights, effectively still serving the market. Ryanair's only hope would then be to completely shut down all flying to/from EIN - an airport which by all accounts is turning them a healthy profit. THEN they could lay off all staff, but obviously only in accordance with Dutch law as has been outlined previously in this thread.
Ceasing to fly any planes in as unprofitable is difficult to argue with.
How long is FR-EIN deal ?
racedo is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 23:13
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 109
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
This isn't going to dampen the flames either ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46114097
paperHanger is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 23:26
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At least the sackings mean Ryanair can now say no Ryanair staff had to sleep on the floor! (Since they’re no longer staff!) You couldn’t make it up! What century is this?
ShotOne is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2018, 01:29
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ShotOne
At least the sackings mean Ryanair can now say no Ryanair staff had to sleep on the floor! (Since they’re no longer staff!) You couldn’t make it up! What century is this?
Mind you in most companies now days the threat of of industrial damage due to employees social media accounts is covered by strict social media rules. It is very unfortunate these 6 crew lost their jobs however I do have to say that this photo seemed like a blatant attempt to cause damage to the companies reputation. I believe most companies now would call for dismissal if such an event took place or at least a very stern warning.

The cctv footage also showed that this was not just a random lie down to take a rest but rather an orchestrated event, a childish one at that.
flyingmed is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2018, 03:27
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Under the radar
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Then this happened!

​​​​​quote: 'Unbeknownst to investors, the company's historical profit growth was built on an undisclosed and unsustainable foundation of worker exploitation and employee turnover,'
Sonikt is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2018, 13:25
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sonikt
Then this happened!

​​​​​quote: 'Unbeknownst to investors, the company's historical profit growth was built on an undisclosed and unsustainable foundation of worker exploitation and employee turnover,'
With any company in the face of employee disputes the company will try to 'save face' and minimise the problems it is facing. It did seem like a standard response from FR management when the disputes started. I am sure a more realistic view was given behind closed doors. Most big investors don't look too much at media reports but rather the internal facts so I am curious to how they felt FR was negligent in this case?
flyingmed is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2018, 18:11
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Holiday Inn
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
With any company in the face of employee disputes the company will try to 'save face' and minimise the problems it is facing. It did seem like a standard response from FR management when the disputes started. I am sure a more realistic view was given behind closed doors. Most big investors don't look too much at media reports but rather the internal facts so I am curious to how they felt FR was negligent in this case?
When you are a limited company you can not give the big investors realistic information behind closed doors and keep this information from other investors, that would be insider trading and is not only illegal but also very damaging for the trust in the stock market in general.
longlayover is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2018, 12:17
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Exit stage right.
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Sonikt
Then this happened!

​​​​​quote: 'Unbeknownst to investors, the company's historical profit growth was built on an undisclosed and unsustainable foundation of worker exploitation and employee turnover,'
Guess they just don't understand Capitalism.................. wonder have they shares in Walmart, McDonalds or any other people related business.
racedo is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2018, 13:01
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: australia
Age: 80
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyingmed
Mind you in most companies now days the threat of of industrial damage due to employees social media accounts is covered by strict social media rules. It is very unfortunate these 6 crew lost their jobs however I do have to say that this photo seemed like a blatant attempt to cause damage to the companies reputation. I believe most companies now would call for dismissal if such an event took place or at least a very stern warning.

The cctv footage also showed that this was not just a random lie down to take a rest but rather an orchestrated event, a childish one at that.
There were times that companies thought of their responsibilities to their employees and if they had this could never have happened so it could not have been in social media.
A bit like rushing out the black paint to cover up the logos when the results of lack of mainainance occur.
harrryw is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2018, 15:19
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by longlayover


When you are a limited company you can not give the big investors realistic information behind closed doors and keep this information from other investors, that would be insider trading and is not only illegal but also very damaging for the trust in the stock market in general.
I'm just referring to the fact that any normal investor would do some research before investing. Those people who invest in FR because they see O'Leary on tv saying "Everything is fine!" are not the smartest. it is his job to paint a nice picture of Ryanair to ensure a stable future for the company. Basically the idea that he is 'frauding investors' because he is trying to calm markets saying FR is fine is quite bizarre.

Originally Posted by harrryw
There were times that companies thought of their responsibilities to their employees and if they had this could never have happened so it could not have been in social media.
A bit like rushing out the black paint to cover up the logos when the results of lack of mainainance occur.
Yes I agree the company are probably terrible to work for, however I am only speaking towards the crew. Their actions were very stupid in my opinion and any company (not only FR) would have fired them for publicly criticizing them. The debate about FR and how they treat the employees is a boring one as I think we are all in agreement there!
flyingmed is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.