Swiss evacuates in Thessalonique
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Pegasus77, the problem isn't whether or not there should be a two-way communications flow between the front and back end, rather peoples attitudes. I would hazard a guess that if 411A treats cabin crew with little or no respect that they would be very unlikely to pick up the interphone. His sort of approach can so alienate people to the extent that they will sit, watch (and enjoy) you s***wing up and say nothing.
Sweety, I’m intrigued by you idea that 411A thinks about his posts!
Sweety, I’m intrigued by you idea that 411A thinks about his posts!
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RoboAlbert
Brief to cabin crew (purser or supervisor):
Flight time to destination is ____, weather enroute expected is ____, if you have ANY problems that I can assist with, give a call on the interphone or visit up front personally.
Has worked for me for a very long time.
Those cockpit crew who constantly poke their noses in the cabin, are not attending to duties up front. Likewise for cabin crew.
If cabin crew want to be pilots, then go get the necessary ratings and apply accordingly.
Quite simple really.
Brief to cabin crew (purser or supervisor):
Flight time to destination is ____, weather enroute expected is ____, if you have ANY problems that I can assist with, give a call on the interphone or visit up front personally.
Has worked for me for a very long time.
Those cockpit crew who constantly poke their noses in the cabin, are not attending to duties up front. Likewise for cabin crew.
If cabin crew want to be pilots, then go get the necessary ratings and apply accordingly.
Quite simple really.
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I've taken a holiday hoping upon my return to see things improve on these forums. Some hope, what an arrogant childish bunch of d--k heads you lot are. So the Cabin crew can't make decisions he! rubbish. Don't let yourselves be identified guys, otherwise don't drink the cappuchino!! Oh and if the purser, maybe 20 yrs in the trade has to speak on the phone to the F/O, maybe 1 yr, how can said F/O trust the purser to tell him what's happening such that he can make a decision!!
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So on a four engine aircraft, a cabin crew member initiates an evac because he can see flames. How do they know that the remaining engines are shut down?
Wouldn't be pleasant going down a slide into jet blast.
Wouldn't be pleasant going down a slide into jet blast.
Have flight attendants watched the same film shown to us, where a Delta B-767 has a small tailpipe fire in one engine, and after the Captain chatted on the Rescue radio frequency with the lead Fireman, decided that it was best to leave everyone on board while some halon etc was sprayed onto it, instead of having people jump onto long slides, risking broken bones?
Are pilot groups presented with certain options and info which the flight attendant Recurrent Training syllabi might not include?
Don't forget that after 9/11, an FA on a DC-10 which was loaded with people looking forward to their flight to Amsterdam, became anxious when she overheard people with foreign accents, used her cell phone to call her boyfriend far away and decided to use him to call Wash Dulles Airport Security while she, alone, initiated an evacuation without telling the pilots!
Are pilot groups presented with certain options and info which the flight attendant Recurrent Training syllabi might not include?
Don't forget that after 9/11, an FA on a DC-10 which was loaded with people looking forward to their flight to Amsterdam, became anxious when she overheard people with foreign accents, used her cell phone to call her boyfriend far away and decided to use him to call Wash Dulles Airport Security while she, alone, initiated an evacuation without telling the pilots!
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Olivasnooze
... to say nothing of dumping a load of scared and confused pax on an unfamiliar apron/taxiway without a reception commitee and with the likelihood that the fire service and other ground vehicles would be approaching the area at a rate of knots.
... to say nothing of dumping a load of scared and confused pax on an unfamiliar apron/taxiway without a reception commitee and with the likelihood that the fire service and other ground vehicles would be approaching the area at a rate of knots.
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Our cabin crew are taught that after an aircraft has come to a stop they are go to their assigned exit, assess external conditions for fire, etc and 'WAIT' for the evacuation command from the Flight deck crew. It is emphasised to the c/c that the time taken to complete shut down checks may vary between different a/c types and that they are to use crowd control techniques in order to prevent pax pressurising them into evacuating prematurely, or attempting to open the exits themselves, before the engines are shut down.
I am lead to believe that, for example, older generation boeings eg B757 take less time to complete shut down check lists than the flybywire a/c?
C/C are actively encouraged to communicate as much information as possible to the F/D during ANY emergency situation. Any C/C member initiating an evacuation without attempting to contact the Cpt would be diverting from SOP's. One can however never say never and a get out clause is provided. ALL aircrew 'may modify standard procedures for the best safety advantage.' But they had better be able to justify the reasons afterwards!
411, whilst agreeing with the theortical side of your argument, I also agree with others that your approach to CRM leaves a lot to be desired. It pains me to say that you remind me of the Cpt at Kegworth (Hunt?) who was so unapproachable the c/c apparently would not have dared to question that he knew which engine was on fire? CRM has been developed specifically to address problems and attitudes such as this/yours. No doubt, with your usual 'candour' your rebuttal will be swift, well worded and patronising to the extreme. It changes not the fact that, though you appear to think otherwise, yet another window has been smashed in that glass house of yours.
I am lead to believe that, for example, older generation boeings eg B757 take less time to complete shut down check lists than the flybywire a/c?
C/C are actively encouraged to communicate as much information as possible to the F/D during ANY emergency situation. Any C/C member initiating an evacuation without attempting to contact the Cpt would be diverting from SOP's. One can however never say never and a get out clause is provided. ALL aircrew 'may modify standard procedures for the best safety advantage.' But they had better be able to justify the reasons afterwards!
411, whilst agreeing with the theortical side of your argument, I also agree with others that your approach to CRM leaves a lot to be desired. It pains me to say that you remind me of the Cpt at Kegworth (Hunt?) who was so unapproachable the c/c apparently would not have dared to question that he knew which engine was on fire? CRM has been developed specifically to address problems and attitudes such as this/yours. No doubt, with your usual 'candour' your rebuttal will be swift, well worded and patronising to the extreme. It changes not the fact that, though you appear to think otherwise, yet another window has been smashed in that glass house of yours.
Last edited by Whiskey Zulu; 28th Jul 2002 at 09:20.
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Dear Caruthers,
I agree with most people here on the forum that the tone of 411A is not always the most tactical (he seems to like being disliked, which is not a good thing for a captain), but how about the threat with cappucino a few posts up?
No valid point was made there, although offcourse a 20 year purser knows a lot of flight safety and a lot of the service in the cabin, a purser didn't follow flight training, and most important of all, the purser is not in the cockpit, where all the information (gauges, indications, radiocalls with tower and fire brigade to mention some) comes together. There the 1 year FO has, because of his training, and because of all the information sources presented to him, a better overview of the total picture. Please let said purser call the FO with information about how the passengers are doing, about where flames can be seen from the cabin, but as long as the cockpit is not unconcious, may the pilots make the decision?
I don't think Olivasnooze wanted all pax in his example to be cooked on board, my wild guess is he doesn't want them roasted or grilled on the apron.
I understand your feelings, at least for a part, Caruthers, but the point I read in a lot of posts of pilots in this thread is that FAs might be very competent, but have limited information sources and therefore should seek contact with the cockpit if they wish to evacuate. Reasons for that are several (fire brigade, nescessity of evac, running engines, direction of the wind etc. etc.). I am the last person to state cabin crew would not be able to make a decision, but in this case, you should decide to wait or to provide the cockpit with information you only can provide from the back of the a/c.
P77
I agree with most people here on the forum that the tone of 411A is not always the most tactical (he seems to like being disliked, which is not a good thing for a captain), but how about the threat with cappucino a few posts up?
No valid point was made there, although offcourse a 20 year purser knows a lot of flight safety and a lot of the service in the cabin, a purser didn't follow flight training, and most important of all, the purser is not in the cockpit, where all the information (gauges, indications, radiocalls with tower and fire brigade to mention some) comes together. There the 1 year FO has, because of his training, and because of all the information sources presented to him, a better overview of the total picture. Please let said purser call the FO with information about how the passengers are doing, about where flames can be seen from the cabin, but as long as the cockpit is not unconcious, may the pilots make the decision?
I don't think Olivasnooze wanted all pax in his example to be cooked on board, my wild guess is he doesn't want them roasted or grilled on the apron.
I understand your feelings, at least for a part, Caruthers, but the point I read in a lot of posts of pilots in this thread is that FAs might be very competent, but have limited information sources and therefore should seek contact with the cockpit if they wish to evacuate. Reasons for that are several (fire brigade, nescessity of evac, running engines, direction of the wind etc. etc.). I am the last person to state cabin crew would not be able to make a decision, but in this case, you should decide to wait or to provide the cockpit with information you only can provide from the back of the a/c.
P77
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Whiskey Zulu
During a pax flight deck visit many years ago (when this was indeed possible) the guest mentioned that the IFS was telling everyone within earshot that "he was in charge" of the flight.
Called this IFS up front and asked him if he knew where the nose of the aeroplane was. He replied...yes, of course. Had him look over the glareshield to be sure. Then asked him if he knew where the white light was at the tail. He again mentioned "of course".
My reply was...."Between these two places, everything belongs to me, the rest belongs to you. Now get your a@@ back in the cabin and do YOUR job."
Thereafter, not a peep out of him.
During a pax flight deck visit many years ago (when this was indeed possible) the guest mentioned that the IFS was telling everyone within earshot that "he was in charge" of the flight.
Called this IFS up front and asked him if he knew where the nose of the aeroplane was. He replied...yes, of course. Had him look over the glareshield to be sure. Then asked him if he knew where the white light was at the tail. He again mentioned "of course".
My reply was...."Between these two places, everything belongs to me, the rest belongs to you. Now get your a@@ back in the cabin and do YOUR job."
Thereafter, not a peep out of him.
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411A, like I said, you seem to like to be disliked, and after your last post I do not like you, so you can rejoice and be happy about this last event you mentioned in your hotelroom alone at night, during which the rest of the crew is having dinner together.
P77
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Seems I was wrong after all.
It seems even 411A can't defend his personal attitude to CRM.
You are a flight safety hazard.
No doubt, with your usual 'candour' your rebuttal will be swift, well worded and patronising to the extreme.
You are a flight safety hazard.
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We are going around the usual circles guys. It would seem that the issue must be black or white. In the majority of cases the flight deck would initiate an evacuation but they are at the end that impacts first and may not respond to 'phone calls'. It cannot be beyond the wit of even 411A to see that there will be circumstances when the cabin crew should initiate an evacuation, they may occasionaly get it wrong but who doesn't. Pegasus77, please get real. 411A, bearing in mind that you are now locked away in your flight deck who do you think is in charge of the cabin? get out of your ivory tower.
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But perhaps (in a roundabout kind of way) 411A has ( or at least tries to make ) a valid point, i.e. it's all very well being 'civil, nice and egalitarian', but sometimes 'civil, nice and egalitarian' is not what's needed.
E.g. Just imagine Boot Camp and a RSM to a trooper on some point of who's in charge ( and why )....
"Now look here my good man, would you please remember that whilst we do try to be nice and chummy and all that, but, well, it's me who ultimately carries-the-can, so do please try to bear that in mind in your deliberations"
Where at the other end of the scale is........
"You 'orrible little man, just who the bloody hell do you think you are ?!!!"
Perchance to jest,........ where of course somewhere in between there's hopefully a happy middle ground for all occasions, and especially so to be hoped-for in the tight confines of an airliner and it's team therein.
But let's not also forget that sometimes a COMMANDER (hence the title) has to make decisions which might prove unpopular with the troops (read, 'team'), and hence to then suffer perhaps "the loneliness of command !"
E.g. W.r.t. to 'Aircraft Commanders discretion to extend a flying duty period' as written in many a JAR Ops Manual (section 7) it often states: "Aircraft commanders may, at their discretion, and after taking note of the circumstances of the other members of the crew, extend a FDP beyond that permitted in paragraph..... blah blah blah " - i.e. theoretically the decision to extend a FDP has got nothing to do with the Cabin crew team ( but you'd be amazed how many CabinCrew think that they can hold the operation to ransom about that ).
Or how about, "Commanders are authorised to exercise their discretion in the following circumstances, ....... blah blah blah " where your average FltOps Manual is liberally littered with such phrases - but it doesn't say anywhere that the Purser, CSD, or CC are able to exercise such privileges.
Of course some of history's best commanders have been aloof from their troops, yet still much admired and invoked much followership, and vice versa (and vice versa) - it takes all sorts
- and if by any other yard-stick, aircraft commanders get paid a reasonable salary as a sort of a measure of their experience, level headedness, decision making skills, and responsibility required that comes with their job.
That said, and rather unfortunately ( imho ), many cabin crew are not aware of the level of knowledge, skill, and experience of the person in the LHS - coz all they mostly see is a couple of boring old sods sitting up front for hours on end, expecting tea and food on a regular basis, and apparently not doing too much at all except to watch the AutoPilot do its stuff (yet earning a stack more dosh) - but not for them the biannual sim checks and medicals upon which the license and livelihood depends that you pass !
Indeed it made me chuckle the other day when the AP on my aircraft slightly lost the plot during a descending turn (changes from VNAV SPEED, to LVL CHG, to V/S) and induced about 7 seconds-worth of light G-force; I was earwigging the 'Cabin Interphone' (as you do) which then burst into life between front and rear galleys as to what the hell was going on ( talk about sh!te' themselves over a modicum of G -force - whereas I actually quite enjoyed it, as it reminded me that I was flying) where I then jumped in and said that it was all ok, which it was - and yet some here would purport that I'm supposed to feel confident that the team members behind me are always knowledgeable enough aviation professionals as to be able to initiate an evacuation based solely on what they are experiencing, rather than the coordinated information that's coming into the cockpit via Cabin Interphone, Instrument Readings, RT from Tower and FireBrigade, 'the bigger picture', etc..... ?!
So, very much in concurrence with what has been said above, ideally the CabinCrew should inform the FlightDeck of what they see, so that all the information can be assimilated such that a coordinated decision can be made (ultimately by the Commander) as to what is the best course of action to follow (i.e. to get out or not).
Of course if the situation is 'Catastrophic' (define) then the CabinCrew are very much on their own.
Ps - (hence the Edit - actually for a typo, but also for an addendum) I'd just like to add that many is the time when I go to work and think "Wow - what a top team !" and that when we all blast off into the atmosphere we go with TOTAL confidence in one another, in that each knows their part in the play and yet that they can assume other roles if need be - but there again, just occassionally it's not the A team that's onboard (when viewed from any angle) and it's then that all aboard need to pay particular adherence to the script (read, SOP).
E.g. Just imagine Boot Camp and a RSM to a trooper on some point of who's in charge ( and why )....
"Now look here my good man, would you please remember that whilst we do try to be nice and chummy and all that, but, well, it's me who ultimately carries-the-can, so do please try to bear that in mind in your deliberations"
Where at the other end of the scale is........
"You 'orrible little man, just who the bloody hell do you think you are ?!!!"
Perchance to jest,........ where of course somewhere in between there's hopefully a happy middle ground for all occasions, and especially so to be hoped-for in the tight confines of an airliner and it's team therein.
But let's not also forget that sometimes a COMMANDER (hence the title) has to make decisions which might prove unpopular with the troops (read, 'team'), and hence to then suffer perhaps "the loneliness of command !"
E.g. W.r.t. to 'Aircraft Commanders discretion to extend a flying duty period' as written in many a JAR Ops Manual (section 7) it often states: "Aircraft commanders may, at their discretion, and after taking note of the circumstances of the other members of the crew, extend a FDP beyond that permitted in paragraph..... blah blah blah " - i.e. theoretically the decision to extend a FDP has got nothing to do with the Cabin crew team ( but you'd be amazed how many CabinCrew think that they can hold the operation to ransom about that ).
Or how about, "Commanders are authorised to exercise their discretion in the following circumstances, ....... blah blah blah " where your average FltOps Manual is liberally littered with such phrases - but it doesn't say anywhere that the Purser, CSD, or CC are able to exercise such privileges.
Of course some of history's best commanders have been aloof from their troops, yet still much admired and invoked much followership, and vice versa (and vice versa) - it takes all sorts
- and if by any other yard-stick, aircraft commanders get paid a reasonable salary as a sort of a measure of their experience, level headedness, decision making skills, and responsibility required that comes with their job.That said, and rather unfortunately ( imho ), many cabin crew are not aware of the level of knowledge, skill, and experience of the person in the LHS - coz all they mostly see is a couple of boring old sods sitting up front for hours on end, expecting tea and food on a regular basis, and apparently not doing too much at all except to watch the AutoPilot do its stuff (yet earning a stack more dosh) - but not for them the biannual sim checks and medicals upon which the license and livelihood depends that you pass !
Indeed it made me chuckle the other day when the AP on my aircraft slightly lost the plot during a descending turn (changes from VNAV SPEED, to LVL CHG, to V/S) and induced about 7 seconds-worth of light G-force; I was earwigging the 'Cabin Interphone' (as you do) which then burst into life between front and rear galleys as to what the hell was going on ( talk about sh!te' themselves over a modicum of G -force - whereas I actually quite enjoyed it, as it reminded me that I was flying) where I then jumped in and said that it was all ok, which it was - and yet some here would purport that I'm supposed to feel confident that the team members behind me are always knowledgeable enough aviation professionals as to be able to initiate an evacuation based solely on what they are experiencing, rather than the coordinated information that's coming into the cockpit via Cabin Interphone, Instrument Readings, RT from Tower and FireBrigade, 'the bigger picture', etc..... ?!
So, very much in concurrence with what has been said above, ideally the CabinCrew should inform the FlightDeck of what they see, so that all the information can be assimilated such that a coordinated decision can be made (ultimately by the Commander) as to what is the best course of action to follow (i.e. to get out or not).
Of course if the situation is 'Catastrophic' (define) then the CabinCrew are very much on their own.
Ps - (hence the Edit - actually for a typo, but also for an addendum) I'd just like to add that many is the time when I go to work and think "Wow - what a top team !" and that when we all blast off into the atmosphere we go with TOTAL confidence in one another, in that each knows their part in the play and yet that they can assume other roles if need be - but there again, just occassionally it's not the A team that's onboard (when viewed from any angle)
and it's then that all aboard need to pay particular adherence to the script (read, SOP).
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 28th Jul 2002 at 21:04.
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Seems "some" here still do NOT get the picture.
The Commander IS in charge, like it or NOT. I could care less if i'm not popular...don't answer to the CC, but management (actually AM management now, so make that shareholders).
OTOH, the very best flights are when there is a "cabin captain" available in the cabin who can have all work together with no problems. To these.... my utmost respect and co-operation.
Have bought many a beer for these folks...but unfortunately these types are few and far between.
Over...
PS: Seriph has clearly lost the plot, as the Brits would say.
The Commander IS in charge, like it or NOT. I could care less if i'm not popular...don't answer to the CC, but management (actually AM management now, so make that shareholders).
OTOH, the very best flights are when there is a "cabin captain" available in the cabin who can have all work together with no problems. To these.... my utmost respect and co-operation.
Have bought many a beer for these folks...but unfortunately these types are few and far between.
Over...
PS: Seriph has clearly lost the plot, as the Brits would say.
Last edited by 411A; 28th Jul 2002 at 21:30.
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A little less name-calling here would be well-received. 
I was always taught that in cases of catastrophic failure, the cabin crew can initiate an evacuation.
Such situations include (inter alia) ditching, forced landing and fire in the cabin. It does not include a tailpipe fire.
Should the Purser/CSD/#1 suspect catastrophic failure, first action should be to contact the flight deck. The normal "three calls" rule would apply, I suggest. If the FD crew are a tad busy they can just say "Yeah - we're handling it - standby".
The cabin crew should only initiate an evacuation in such cases if they have reasonable cause to suspect that all up front are incapacitated.
In case of a problem, it is thoroughly dangerous for everybody to start taking action and making decisions affecting the lives of a couple of hundred pax without maintaining the best standard possible of CRM - and that means communicating. Such communication appears from what I've seen to have been sadly lacking in the reported case. However, I accept that the full story will not have been told yet.
I was always taught that in cases of catastrophic failure, the cabin crew can initiate an evacuation.
Such situations include (inter alia) ditching, forced landing and fire in the cabin. It does not include a tailpipe fire.
Should the Purser/CSD/#1 suspect catastrophic failure, first action should be to contact the flight deck. The normal "three calls" rule would apply, I suggest. If the FD crew are a tad busy they can just say "Yeah - we're handling it - standby".
The cabin crew should only initiate an evacuation in such cases if they have reasonable cause to suspect that all up front are incapacitated.
In case of a problem, it is thoroughly dangerous for everybody to start taking action and making decisions affecting the lives of a couple of hundred pax without maintaining the best standard possible of CRM - and that means communicating. Such communication appears from what I've seen to have been sadly lacking in the reported case. However, I accept that the full story will not have been told yet.
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Seriph........... I, or I'm sure (imho) many of us, do not understand why you seem to find the contents of an Airlines Ops manual such anathema ( it's a legally binding tome; i.e. containing details about which you can be veritably hung drawn and quartered ), and accordingly might I suggest you have a VERY GOOD READ of your own companies one (start with 'Part A' - Section 1 - in which you'll find somthing akin to 'Authorities, Duties and Responsibilities of the Commander' ), especially those sections which pertain to who is responsible for what, where, and when - because one day you might need to be able to defend both your actions and that of your crew ( should either you or they vary from what is permitted within it and or its scope ).
Indeed you might indeed find that, following the section mentioned above, there is something relating to 'The Duties and Responsibilities of Other Crew Members' (but not the F/O - but whom is governed by similar dictates) stating something similar to: 'Other crew memvers are responsible to the aeroplane commander and shall carry out his / her instructions and assist him / her in the safe operation of the aeroplane'
So read it and weep old son - it's black and white (sort of) and legally binding - ignore it or misunderstand it at your peril !
Indeed you might indeed find that, following the section mentioned above, there is something relating to 'The Duties and Responsibilities of Other Crew Members' (but not the F/O - but whom is governed by similar dictates) stating something similar to: 'Other crew memvers are responsible to the aeroplane commander and shall carry out his / her instructions and assist him / her in the safe operation of the aeroplane'
So read it and weep old son - it's black and white (sort of) and legally binding - ignore it or misunderstand it at your peril !
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Serif
Try and understand this .....
An aeroplane is neither a democracy nor a meritocracy.
The Captain is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and pax and his/her authority/culpability is final.
This rule applies whether the aircraft is a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 747-400.
A passengers role is to listen to the instructions from the captain, usually delegated via the cabin crew and to comply.
The role of cabin crew is to listen to the captain (or FO if the captain is incapacitated) and comply, but also to offer information where appropriate; also under some exceptional circumstances (e.g. where flight deck incapacitated after an emergency landing) to take the necessary action using own initiative - but note the word is exceptional.
Before you get on your high horse about "leave professional flying to those who do it professionally", please note that air law is the same for all pilots and I have a CAA exam pass in it - do you?
Now if you ever come across me in your professional role, I will be the quiet and courteous guy in seat XX, who listens to the safety brief, follows the crew's instructions and is generally low key.
Its all about trusting the chain of command and although I don't often agree with 411A's tone, if he is the captain of the a/c I'm travelling on, then he' "The Man" as far as I am concerned and he owns the bat and ball. He also seems to have acquired a lot of hours, with the same number of take offs and landings - this is a very good sign in my limited experience.
If Sh*t happens, then decisions have to be made by however is capable of making them, but for the vast majority of the time, the guys up front will have better situational awareness (including input from cabin crew.)
This shouldn't be a contentious or emotional discussion, it's logical and if you look at the safety stats, it works.
Try and understand this .....
An aeroplane is neither a democracy nor a meritocracy.
The Captain is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and pax and his/her authority/culpability is final.
This rule applies whether the aircraft is a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 747-400.
A passengers role is to listen to the instructions from the captain, usually delegated via the cabin crew and to comply.
The role of cabin crew is to listen to the captain (or FO if the captain is incapacitated) and comply, but also to offer information where appropriate; also under some exceptional circumstances (e.g. where flight deck incapacitated after an emergency landing) to take the necessary action using own initiative - but note the word is exceptional.
Before you get on your high horse about "leave professional flying to those who do it professionally", please note that air law is the same for all pilots and I have a CAA exam pass in it - do you?
Now if you ever come across me in your professional role, I will be the quiet and courteous guy in seat XX, who listens to the safety brief, follows the crew's instructions and is generally low key.
Its all about trusting the chain of command and although I don't often agree with 411A's tone, if he is the captain of the a/c I'm travelling on, then he' "The Man" as far as I am concerned and he owns the bat and ball. He also seems to have acquired a lot of hours, with the same number of take offs and landings - this is a very good sign in my limited experience.
If Sh*t happens, then decisions have to be made by however is capable of making them, but for the vast majority of the time, the guys up front will have better situational awareness (including input from cabin crew.)
This shouldn't be a contentious or emotional discussion, it's logical and if you look at the safety stats, it works.