Swiss evacuates in Thessalonique
 

Folks,

Just spotted the following piece of info (in French)

Would be routine except that the evacuation was apparently decided by cabin staff after observing flames from one of the turbines.

Strikes me as odd.

Anyone ?

Nothing unusual about cabin crew initiating an evacuation if they consider it the right thing to do. That lesson was learnt from the Saudi 1011 incident.

The Saudi 1011 incident was not just a tailpipe fire

Ok, wasn't aware of that.

How is it supposed to work ? I guess this is only possible when the plane is not moving, either at the gate or waiting for takeoff.

I can't imagine the cabin staff initiating evecuation during takeoff roll...

--alex

Cabin crew may initiate an evac in 'catastrophic' events. Depends what their view of catastrophic (in our SEP training course there is no verbal definition, just a picture of an aircraft in pieces with flames coming out of it, with a cartoon pilot looking very unhappy!) is but to them fire is fire. We don't know the full extent of the interaction (or not) between the cabin crew and the flight crew but as a general rule you can be sure the cabin crew would be able to justify their actions in a situation as serious as an evac. Their job is to ensure the safety of all the people on the aircraft.

Some cabin crew have strange ideas. Recall some years ago an SV TriStar landed Cairo and while taxiing to the parking bay experienced an engine rundown/tailpipe fire on number one engine. The cabin crew noticed this, and tried to evac...out the PORT side. The Captain was able to stop the aircraft...and stop the evac only because the L3 door would not open. Quick communication from the flight deck prevented a very unpleasant situation.

quote:

"Nothing unusual about cabin crew initiating an evacuation if they consider it the right thing to do. That lesson was learnt from the Saudi 1011 incident..."

Not quite correct are you now?It is true that flt attendants will initaite an evacuation under extreme conditions.BUT THE AIRCRAFT HAS GOT TO BE STATIONARY HASNT IT NOW?Also,since the L1011 hadnt been depresssurized,any initiative shown by the FA's would have been sadly thwarted.

Uhm, not familiar with the L-1011's specifics, but why would the airplane still be pressurized after landing and taxiing to the gate? Upon landing, the airplane should depressurize, whether it be almost instantly or during a short automated depressurization sequence.

Cabin Crew is only allowed to do a emergency evacuation in case of EXPLOSIVE FIRE, STRUCTUAL DAMAGE or DITCHING. But I think not with a engine tail fire!!

SWISS is not equal to SWISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know what I mean?

Cabin Crew initiated evacuation.
 

A cabin crew initiated evacuation would arise from a situation which either the flightdeck could not see, a completely obvious situation or if the flightdeck were incapacitated at the time.

It is an integral part of SEP training that in the event of certain emergencies the IFD/NO.1 would initiate an evacuation without flightdeck command. The training gives quite strict guidelines as to when this should happen - as stated above in the event of

DITCHING
STRUCTURAL DAMAGE
FIRE

These are CLEARLY CATASTROPHIC events.

It would be quite normal SOP for flightdeck to state a side of the aircraft from which to evacuate. However, if they are unable to do so, (and even if they can) then this is incorporated into the cabin crew evacuation drill.

"Wait until the aircraft has come to a complete stop" - If the aircraft is taxying and smoke begins to fill the cabin through the AC vents, the Emergency in Cabin button is there for such a purpose.

"Check outside for fire/hazards" or similar would be a usual first part to a cabin crew drill after the aircraft has stopped. Therefore, any cabin crew member who opens an exit and has a slide inflate behind a burning tailpipe is NOT following their training.

Training is there to provide a good sound knowledge of SEP procedures and awareness. We all know that not every emergency will occur as per the manual (aircraft floating nicely in a ditching, evacuation into a nice flat piece of ground, gathering pax upwind away from the aircraft) hence adaptation of training and knowledge is required.

I agree that Cabin Crew initiating an evacuation whilst the aircraft is in motion, or into a fire is completely non standard procedure and either the training, or IFD needs to be questioned.

The issue of a tailpipe fire - I assume that the flightdeck should be well aware of this occurring and would initiate an evacuation if necessary stating which side to evacuate from. However if no information or command is passed (when the aircraft is stationary for instance just after pushback) and a tailpipe fire is observed for a prolonged period, does everyone sit and wait for the aircraft to become a pile of burning embers while unbeknown to the crew the captain and f/o are incapacitated or is an evacuation initiated anyway? Smoke starting to fill the cabin at the holding point?

L3 on the B757-200 - this is an exit which may be unmanned with a crewmember sitting at R3 only. Therefore, pax are briefed on its operation. Pax will open that door whatever the situation if they are told to evacuate - even if there is a tailpipe fire on the No.1 engine.

Come on guys - we are all supposed to work together - I feel that too many people clash on this point of CC initiated evacs. If the right people are doing the job, following their training and can sensibly adapt it if necassary then the safer we will all be.

However, don't always blame the crew. Blame the airlines that put an IFD on a flight with 5 other crewmembers all of whom have been recruited on a 6 month contract and have been flying for a month.......even though they are trained, the big picture may not be there.

Cheers,

starship :cool:

Iz

With the HK incident, the pressurisation was left in the "standby mode" and therefor upon landing did NOT automatically depressurise as it would in the "Auto" mode.

Starship

Tailpipe fires, although spectacular in appearance, do not result in the aeroplane being "burned to embers" so evac is generally not needed or desired.

411A, I was actually using the example loosely with the consideration that fire speading is not impossible if it is not dealt with (should there be fuel astray) .......I am not stating facts, merely points of discussion which I feel there is not enough of on these forums (point scoring and arguing - yes). I do however work for a company where CRM and shared discussion is valued to the highest degree, hence my interest in the post.

I would hardly call a tailpipe fire spectacular..........and yes I have seen one ;)

cheers

starship

This is ridiculous, some of us and our companies accept that the cabin crew have a role beyond serving lunch. The Saudi incident was caused by the flight deck, the cabin crew could have saved many lives if the pilots had operated correctly and if the procedures permitted them. Don't quibble over whether the aircraft is moving or has only got a 'tailpipe' fire, the cabin crew are usually better placed to assess the situation and advise the pilots or react as they see fit. After all the pilots could be incapacitated, un aware or just 'switched off'.

Seriph

<....react as they see fit.>

Surely you can't be serious. Many of the FA's I have noticed over the years did not know what time of day it was, let alone...what was 'fit".

With many carriers, the FA training just does not measure up.
Much better to leave the tech details to the tech crew.

The subject of tailpipe fires and passenger evacuations is covered on an instructional video put on the web by the FAA (New England Region, -Standards section)

The naration states something to the effect that the tailpipe fire as shown in the video may be spectaculor in appearence although typically slortlived when detected and handled by the flight crew (motoring and fuel cutoff). It also shows the recomemnded intercom between the cabin crew and flight crew in such events before putting passengers out the door and infront of running engines.

There have been three major events on widebodies (A330, and two B747-400) where the tailpipe fire serously damaged the wing because the pilots had to shutdown the engines and leave the fire still burning upwards under the wing using up residual fuel and no airflow to blow the fire in back of the wing, when the passengers went down the chutes without the flight crew's command.

411A I was of course referring to European cabin crew. As for being switched off, well hopefully they will be sober.

Seriph – “the cabin crew are usually better placed to assess the situation and advise the pilots or react as they see fit”.

I am not trying to put down cabin crew, however, there are some that do not know the right hand side of an aircraft to the left hand side of the aircraft – British Midland 737-300 kegworth.

I would have thought that communication is the key, if in a position to communicate then surely that is paramount to a satisfactory outcome to any emergency.

Seriph,
There you go again...........talking pants.
411A may often be controversial but he's got huge experience and is talking good sense. Your reference to 'European' cabin crew seems to imply that they are OK whilst the rest of the World is useless. Rather a wild and rash judgment I think you'll agree, not to mention supremely arrogant. Also whats your suggestion about being sober all about - you want to be a bit more careful with your posts. I fly in Europe and wouldnt want evacuations going on without having my say so (unless of course theres something SO serious going on).
The more you post on these forums the more I'm suspect about you........................
'Tailscrape' had a good point about you the other day.

:rolleyes:

I seem to remember whilst working in a London airport a certain far eastern long haul aircraft experiencing a similar event after push back. A pax didn't like the look of the flames, decided he/she was better off outside the aircraft and opened a door him/herself, deployed the slide and b*ggered off!!!!(apparently only to be arrested by a couple of coppers passing by in their panda car!!!!!).

So what do you 'suspect' Stressfree? It is a simple matter of fact that some airlines do authorise their cabin crew to initiate evacuations if they consider it necessary and why not? Does all the wisdom sit on the flight deck? Reading these threads I think not.