Swiss evacuates in Thessalonique
Even when pilots' remarks on Pprune about previous inflight discussions appear quite blunt or abrasive, the written word often lacks the ability to describe what the situation was. I have heard about one or two gate agents, who stated that they were in charge of the aircraft at the gate. Well, most of us, if present to overhear such a remark, might just leave the agent in his/her own little phantasy world. The Captain is usually told that we can't delay for lav service etc unless there is a safety issue.
When the airplane leaves the gate, not even such a "Gate Captain" has anymore authority or "responsibility for the aircraft"
. No flight attendant has this much responsibility, but we had better hope that any of them tell us of any concerns or suspicions, regarding odd smells, sounds, leaks etc or passenger behavior, not to mention scanning an engine (plus listening to a tail-mounted engine) if there is a known problem.
We ferried a plane once, years ago, which had a left engine sounding more like a loud vacuum cleaner (or an A-10/C-5 engine), from BOS to the ATL hangar. It was not grounded until the noise became loud enough such that passengers/crewmembers to complain about it.
When the airplane leaves the gate, not even such a "Gate Captain" has anymore authority or "responsibility for the aircraft"
. No flight attendant has this much responsibility, but we had better hope that any of them tell us of any concerns or suspicions, regarding odd smells, sounds, leaks etc or passenger behavior, not to mention scanning an engine (plus listening to a tail-mounted engine) if there is a known problem. We ferried a plane once, years ago, which had a left engine sounding more like a loud vacuum cleaner (or an A-10/C-5 engine), from BOS to the ATL hangar. It was not grounded until the noise became loud enough such that passengers/crewmembers to complain about it.
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Who is in charge?
I am sure that most of us, if not all, know very well that the Captain and FO are in charge of the AC. We know their decision is final. I recpect Flight Crew and I know how hard their work is. (Maybe the fact I'm married to one of them helps?) Anyway...
My guess is that Cabin Crew panicked and thought the best thing was to evacuate. Everybody makes mistakes - even pilots!. There is no need to be rude to Cabin Crew.
Am I right saying there were no casualties involved? I'm not criticizing Pilots, but how many crashes have we had because of Pilot's fault?
I just felt some of you have been trying too hard to prove how important and powerful Flight Crew are and unproffesional and inexperienced are Cabin Crew. Didn't think it was fare. Flight Crew work hard to get where they are, they also are paid more money to be responsible etc.. I agree there are many Cabin Crew who don't have a lot of experience - that's why incidents like this happen. They come and go - not many of us make this job a career... I'm sure you all knew all that before you read my post anyway...
My guess is that Cabin Crew panicked and thought the best thing was to evacuate. Everybody makes mistakes - even pilots!. There is no need to be rude to Cabin Crew.
Am I right saying there were no casualties involved? I'm not criticizing Pilots, but how many crashes have we had because of Pilot's fault?
I just felt some of you have been trying too hard to prove how important and powerful Flight Crew are and unproffesional and inexperienced are Cabin Crew. Didn't think it was fare. Flight Crew work hard to get where they are, they also are paid more money to be responsible etc.. I agree there are many Cabin Crew who don't have a lot of experience - that's why incidents like this happen. They come and go - not many of us make this job a career... I'm sure you all knew all that before you read my post anyway...
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I agree to most of the above entries, but still there are rules, aswell for F/A's to be followed.
And in our SWISS manuals its is clearly written. that there are ONLY 3 cases, where an F/A is allowed to initiate a emergency evacuation on here/his own and this are "ditching, structual damage and EXPLOSIVE FIRE".
What an explosive fire looks like is regulary discussed in our EPR (emerg. proc. refresher) If a F/A thinks an engine tail pipe fire is an explosive fire, there was somewhere a gap in avation education!
And in our SWISS manuals its is clearly written. that there are ONLY 3 cases, where an F/A is allowed to initiate a emergency evacuation on here/his own and this are "ditching, structual damage and EXPLOSIVE FIRE".
What an explosive fire looks like is regulary discussed in our EPR (emerg. proc. refresher) If a F/A thinks an engine tail pipe fire is an explosive fire, there was somewhere a gap in avation education!
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Quite right, 773.
But even then the Cabin Crew should only take unilateral action if the Flight Deck crew are incapacitated.
First rule should be they check. CRM is everything in emergencies. Without it people are going to die unnecessarily. Three words of guidance here:-
Nor should they do so when the aircraft is in motion, nor on the side of the aircraft on which the fire is!
The #1 did not follow procedures, did not follow common sense or logic, did not communicate and in doing so turned a minor incident into a major peril for all on board the aircraft. Perhaps (s)he should be spending a little more time in the garden...
But even then the Cabin Crew should only take unilateral action if the Flight Deck crew are incapacitated.
First rule should be they check. CRM is everything in emergencies. Without it people are going to die unnecessarily. Three words of guidance here:-
- Communicate
- Communicate, and
- Communicate
Nor should they do so when the aircraft is in motion, nor on the side of the aircraft on which the fire is!
The #1 did not follow procedures, did not follow common sense or logic, did not communicate and in doing so turned a minor incident into a major peril for all on board the aircraft. Perhaps (s)he should be spending a little more time in the garden...
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Quote: Hugmonster
'nor on the side of the aircraft on which the fire is!'
In theory it is considered unwise to evacuate on the same side as an external fire. In practice there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration. The British Airtours disaster at Manchester clearly showed that exits on the same side as a fire should not be automatically disregarded. This theory delayed the use of the FWD port exit and no doubt cost lives. The only technically operable exit would have been the starboard overwing exit, which wasn't even controlled by c/c.
On 8 exit a/c such as B757/747/A330/A300, etc. the distance between the FWD/AFT doors and the engines is considerable. Although the tendency for fire/smoke to effect the rear doors is greater than the fwd doors, it is the crew member at the door on the day that should decide whether the exit is usable or not once the command to evac has been given.
Agree?
'nor on the side of the aircraft on which the fire is!'
In theory it is considered unwise to evacuate on the same side as an external fire. In practice there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration. The British Airtours disaster at Manchester clearly showed that exits on the same side as a fire should not be automatically disregarded. This theory delayed the use of the FWD port exit and no doubt cost lives. The only technically operable exit would have been the starboard overwing exit, which wasn't even controlled by c/c.
On 8 exit a/c such as B757/747/A330/A300, etc. the distance between the FWD/AFT doors and the engines is considerable. Although the tendency for fire/smoke to effect the rear doors is greater than the fwd doors, it is the crew member at the door on the day that should decide whether the exit is usable or not once the command to evac has been given.
Agree?
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Certainly agreed that different aircraft have different considerations. Normally, however, one would tend to avoid the side on which one is more likely to get burnt to a crisp
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Well 411A ,
I do not know what your problem is with cabin crew
but you are well up your own ar*e.
I am an ICCM and fully understand the chain of command on an aircraft and respect the responsibility that the flight crew hold
in an emergency and how your training and skills can save live's.
But please do not under estimate the ability of 'YOUR CREW' in
having to make a decision and to evacuate and save people.
It is very clear 'clearly catastrophic' or 'ditching' but when is 'catastrophic'?.
If we don't get the signal to evacuate due to the fact you may be dead and the aircraft is covered in flames are we going to sit there and wait .....NO.
Yes the best form of communication is via the interphone and yes we know what it is and where it is to be found (despite your arrogant statement)but sometimes crew may judge it catastrophic
and initiate the evacuation and save people.
I find your postings arrogant to put it mildly and your disrespect of crew sad.
You got your job as a pilot for the skills you hold and require to handle an aircraft and we the cabin crew for our ability to react in an emergency , interact with passengers and our personalities.
As the last of these you do not have I hope I never have to meet you on or off an aircraft and I am so happy your skills keep you on the flight deck because with your attitude if you ever got in the cabin we would never see our passengers again!!!.
I have no doubt that you would never make these statements in front of the crew as your postings are shielded by this forum and you want the crew to look after you.
If you have any bottle please introduce yourself by name and then say ''some of you may know me as 411A'' and I hope one of them is me.
Devil's Advocate....You are very correct that some crew only get 10 days to 6 weeks training but experience comes with time and so do judgements.
In your early days as a pilot certain situations may have been outside your operating capabilities but now you can handle them.
To both of you please treat others with the respect you would like yourselves and the job can still br fun.
NJR. Bacardi Coke loads of ice and lemon.
P.S. 411A have you ever been dumped by a hostie or have you never had the personality to pull one!! and are you the first out of the taxi and last to the bar.
I think you need to make your's a large one!!!!!
I do not know what your problem is with cabin crew
but you are well up your own ar*e.
I am an ICCM and fully understand the chain of command on an aircraft and respect the responsibility that the flight crew hold
in an emergency and how your training and skills can save live's.
But please do not under estimate the ability of 'YOUR CREW' in
having to make a decision and to evacuate and save people.
It is very clear 'clearly catastrophic' or 'ditching' but when is 'catastrophic'?.
If we don't get the signal to evacuate due to the fact you may be dead and the aircraft is covered in flames are we going to sit there and wait .....NO.
Yes the best form of communication is via the interphone and yes we know what it is and where it is to be found (despite your arrogant statement)but sometimes crew may judge it catastrophic
and initiate the evacuation and save people.
I find your postings arrogant to put it mildly and your disrespect of crew sad.
You got your job as a pilot for the skills you hold and require to handle an aircraft and we the cabin crew for our ability to react in an emergency , interact with passengers and our personalities.
As the last of these you do not have I hope I never have to meet you on or off an aircraft and I am so happy your skills keep you on the flight deck because with your attitude if you ever got in the cabin we would never see our passengers again!!!.
I have no doubt that you would never make these statements in front of the crew as your postings are shielded by this forum and you want the crew to look after you.
If you have any bottle please introduce yourself by name and then say ''some of you may know me as 411A'' and I hope one of them is me.
Devil's Advocate....You are very correct that some crew only get 10 days to 6 weeks training but experience comes with time and so do judgements.
In your early days as a pilot certain situations may have been outside your operating capabilities but now you can handle them.
To both of you please treat others with the respect you would like yourselves and the job can still br fun.
NJR. Bacardi Coke loads of ice and lemon.
P.S. 411A have you ever been dumped by a hostie or have you never had the personality to pull one!! and are you the first out of the taxi and last to the bar.
I think you need to make your's a large one!!!!!
Last edited by nojacketsrequired; 30th Jul 2002 at 07:06.
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Hey NJR!!!
Welcome to the world of PPRUNE!
I've been involved in a thread like this before (look up BA policy on upgrades - TERMS AND ENDEARMENT) and when it comes to being in charge some of these guys on here like to ram it down your throat with there caps on until you can't see the four stripes on their arms!
They are the people that tell everyone they are captains at parties and CRM for them starts and ends with the words "I'm in charge!".
When you guys get windows or video cameras that show you whats going onbehind you outside the aircraft then we'll be happy to let you decide when to evacuate. UNTIL THEN it's still up to us to decide if flames in an engine are catastrophic or not. We are not shown or told about any flames that could appear in an engine other than if you see them and it looks like it's all going Pete Tong YOU EVACUATE!! No arguements! So there could be a reason for flames to appear in an engine and not cause a problem - but could they not spread? - and could they present a risk to your PAX? If after checking them out the answer is yes EVACUATE! I'm employed to save lives primarily, mine and my crews - my PAX - and the pilots. I don't intend to have any of those groups on my concience should something happen, and looking back a few seconds of uncertainty could have made all the difference.
We did a scenario on my CRm course the other day based on an Air Canada incident with fire on board. PEOPLE DIED! Due to in-action and uncertainty I REST MY CASE!
Welcome to the world of PPRUNE!
I've been involved in a thread like this before (look up BA policy on upgrades - TERMS AND ENDEARMENT) and when it comes to being in charge some of these guys on here like to ram it down your throat with there caps on until you can't see the four stripes on their arms!
They are the people that tell everyone they are captains at parties and CRM for them starts and ends with the words "I'm in charge!".
When you guys get windows or video cameras that show you whats going onbehind you outside the aircraft then we'll be happy to let you decide when to evacuate. UNTIL THEN it's still up to us to decide if flames in an engine are catastrophic or not. We are not shown or told about any flames that could appear in an engine other than if you see them and it looks like it's all going Pete Tong YOU EVACUATE!! No arguements! So there could be a reason for flames to appear in an engine and not cause a problem - but could they not spread? - and could they present a risk to your PAX? If after checking them out the answer is yes EVACUATE! I'm employed to save lives primarily, mine and my crews - my PAX - and the pilots. I don't intend to have any of those groups on my concience should something happen, and looking back a few seconds of uncertainty could have made all the difference.
We did a scenario on my CRm course the other day based on an Air Canada incident with fire on board. PEOPLE DIED! Due to in-action and uncertainty I REST MY CASE!
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nojacketsrequired - please have a 'careful' (re)read of what I've posted above.
In that I would propose that me, like you, are only too aware that in the 'early days' of ones aeronautical career one's knowledge is often lacking to the extent that one needs to be able to 'hang ones hat' ( so to speak ) on the training that one has received and to fall-back on the guidance and experience of those around you.
Of course in the F/O’s case, they learn from hands-on and from the example and experience of the people who occupy the LHS – and whilst the learning curve is initially VERY steep the whole of the apprenticeship last for years and years and years !
E.g The pilots have to undergo an extensive period of training to even be allowed to apply for an airline job ( i.e. a minimum of one year full-time training, costing from £40,000 upwards – with NO guarantee of employment at the end of it ).
But once (hopefully) in the bosom of airline employment ( and where dickheads are discouraged ), they then have to do an aircraft specific type-rating ( 6 weeks of class room, plus 2 to 3 weeks of simulator training with assessments and tests all along the way.
Should they pass that, they then have to do ‘base training’ in an empty aircraft ( their first flight in the real aircraft ).
If they pass that they can then visit the CAA, if only to give them a stack of cash, to have the aircraft type put on their license.
After that they are then into ‘Line Training’ which might be a minimum of 40 sectors, where during the first 6, 8, or 10 plus of which they have a safety pilot on board, after which they are still only allowed to fly with Training Captains.
Once they’ve passed their Line Training Check they are then likely to be ‘black-dotted’ to signify their lack of experience until some predetermined level is achieved, e.g. one hundred hours (or more) on the aircraft type.
And of course every six months the pilots are put through their paces in the simulator ( as well as the Class 1 Medical) as part of keeping their license ( and therefore livelihood ) intact - so no pressure !
Thus from the time of starting-out until they occupy the LHS and Command of an airliner is many (read, Many) years – and it is not always an easy apprentiship, and it is similarly not a God given right that a F/O gets to become a Captain....... and of course that is why (when you say) In your early days as a pilot certain situations may have been outside your operating capabilities but now you can handle them that the Captain is there - of course should the skipper croak-it the F/O should at least (on the balance of probabilities) be able to safely land the aircraft at the nearest suitable airport.
Flightdeck training and career progression aside, I personally try hard to treat every crew member as part of the team, where I genuinely believe that ‘open and honest’ is nearly always the best policy, and where I always encourage ALL the cabin crew to come a visit us in the FlighDeck to say “Hi” – though it’s disheartening to find that very few can be bothered ( though it’s seemingly often the No.1 that puts the mockers on it for them ) - and I always remind the CabinCrew that they’ll have our full support if they don’t like something in the cabin, and / or that no matter how trivial it might seem that we’d rather hear about than not - and also, for it what it’s worth ( normally quite a lot – ouch ! ) I always stand the Cabin Crew all their drinks down-route ( after all I do normally earn a lot more than they do – and it’s my way of sort of saying ‘thanks’ ), and so in general I normally think a LOT of all my crew and I find it quite hurtful that you might insinuate that I might think or believe something different about them as people ( albeit that you’ll hopefully agree, that there are sometimes twats on both sides of the FlightDeck door )
That said, I’ll stand by what I wrote in the previous posts about the chain-of-command.
Ps. (Just seen the post by Shadowpurser above) and w.r.t. So there could be a reason for flames to appear in an engine and not cause a problem - but could they not spread? - and could they present a risk to your PAX? If after checking them out err, just how do YOU KNOW what the risk is ? and how do YOU check them out ? – might I suggest that you too have a good read of your companies OpsManual – i.e. do ask your flight operations department and / or the flight crew to have a look at it, and read it very carefully - as it is the legally binding OpsManual which dictates pretty much everything that is expected of all the crew onboard – where failure to fully understand what it allows may one day find you in court trying to defend the indefensible !
E.g. Prosecuting barrister - “So Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Shadowpurser can you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury by what authority you took it upon yourself to evacuate the aircraft without prior consultation with the aircraft Commander ?”
In that I would propose that me, like you, are only too aware that in the 'early days' of ones aeronautical career one's knowledge is often lacking to the extent that one needs to be able to 'hang ones hat' ( so to speak ) on the training that one has received and to fall-back on the guidance and experience of those around you.
Of course in the F/O’s case, they learn from hands-on and from the example and experience of the people who occupy the LHS – and whilst the learning curve is initially VERY steep the whole of the apprenticeship last for years and years and years !
E.g The pilots have to undergo an extensive period of training to even be allowed to apply for an airline job ( i.e. a minimum of one year full-time training, costing from £40,000 upwards – with NO guarantee of employment at the end of it ).
But once (hopefully) in the bosom of airline employment ( and where dickheads are discouraged
), they then have to do an aircraft specific type-rating ( 6 weeks of class room, plus 2 to 3 weeks of simulator training with assessments and tests all along the way.Should they pass that, they then have to do ‘base training’ in an empty aircraft ( their first flight in the real aircraft ).
If they pass that they can then visit the CAA, if only to give them a stack of cash, to have the aircraft type put on their license.
After that they are then into ‘Line Training’ which might be a minimum of 40 sectors, where during the first 6, 8, or 10 plus of which they have a safety pilot on board, after which they are still only allowed to fly with Training Captains.
Once they’ve passed their Line Training Check they are then likely to be ‘black-dotted’ to signify their lack of experience until some predetermined level is achieved, e.g. one hundred hours (or more) on the aircraft type.
And of course every six months the pilots are put through their paces in the simulator ( as well as the Class 1 Medical) as part of keeping their license ( and therefore livelihood ) intact - so no pressure !
Thus from the time of starting-out until they occupy the LHS and Command of an airliner is many (read, Many) years – and it is not always an easy apprentiship, and it is similarly not a God given right that a F/O gets to become a Captain....... and of course that is why (when you say) In your early days as a pilot certain situations may have been outside your operating capabilities but now you can handle them that the Captain is there - of course should the skipper croak-it the F/O should at least (on the balance of probabilities) be able to safely land the aircraft at the nearest suitable airport.
Flightdeck training and career progression aside, I personally try hard to treat every crew member as part of the team, where I genuinely believe that ‘open and honest’ is nearly always the best policy, and where I always encourage ALL the cabin crew to come a visit us in the FlighDeck to say “Hi” – though it’s disheartening to find that very few can be bothered ( though it’s seemingly often the No.1 that puts the mockers on it for them ) - and I always remind the CabinCrew that they’ll have our full support if they don’t like something in the cabin, and / or that no matter how trivial it might seem that we’d rather hear about than not - and also, for it what it’s worth ( normally quite a lot – ouch ! ) I always stand the Cabin Crew all their drinks down-route ( after all I do normally earn a lot more than they do – and it’s my way of sort of saying ‘thanks’ ), and so in general I normally think a LOT of all my crew and I find it quite hurtful that you might insinuate that I might think or believe something different about them as people ( albeit that you’ll hopefully agree, that there are sometimes twats on both sides of the FlightDeck door )
That said, I’ll stand by what I wrote in the previous posts about the chain-of-command.
Ps. (Just seen the post by Shadowpurser above) and w.r.t. So there could be a reason for flames to appear in an engine and not cause a problem - but could they not spread? - and could they present a risk to your PAX? If after checking them out err, just how do YOU KNOW what the risk is ? and how do YOU check them out ? – might I suggest that you too have a good read of your companies OpsManual – i.e. do ask your flight operations department and / or the flight crew to have a look at it, and read it very carefully - as it is the legally binding OpsManual which dictates pretty much everything that is expected of all the crew onboard – where failure to fully understand what it allows may one day find you in court trying to defend the indefensible !
E.g. Prosecuting barrister - “So Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Shadowpurser can you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury by what authority you took it upon yourself to evacuate the aircraft without prior consultation with the aircraft Commander ?”
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 29th Jul 2002 at 21:30.
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Because I deemed the situation to catastophic judge. That's what it says in my company S.O.P's.
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Prosecuting barrister - "but did you attempt to contact the FlightDeck crew as to your concerns w.r.t to the apparent ‘tailpipe’ fire which you believe that you were witnessing - and if so what did they say ? and would you also be so kind as to tell the jury precisely what you understand to be the meaning of the term 'Aircraft Commander' and what it entails ? plus what does the phrase ‘CRM’ mean to you ? and can you please also define the term 'Catastrophic' as is understood by yourself in your role as a cabin crew member and where that terminology is derived from, namely the chapter and verse from your company manual(s) ?"
To be fair (hence the edit), no self respecting Barrister would ever ask all those questions above in such a singular way – more likely they’d let the accused squirm in a mire of the own making by asking each question individually and then, dependent upon the answer given, would bend their next question to suit their ends towards destroying the witnesses credibility – which in this case would not seem too hard (imho).
To be fair (hence the edit), no self respecting Barrister would ever ask all those questions above in such a singular way – more likely they’d let the accused squirm in a mire of the own making by asking each question individually and then, dependent upon the answer given, would bend their next question to suit their ends towards destroying the witnesses credibility – which in this case would not seem too hard (imho).
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 29th Jul 2002 at 22:08.
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Sigh... Look! I assume were talking about this aircraft is taxiing. If someone shouts to me they see flames coming out of an engine - I go to look (I'm also thinking B737 here as well). I don't know how long a tail pipe fire lasts but I'm thinking not long? A few seconds? Enlighten me? If get get there and I find some flames that last a few seconds - YES I phone the pilots. If I get there and there are flames licking up the wings and not what I would assume is a tailpipe fire I evacuate - that's what the manual says!
If a tailpipe fire was that common or something that was not a problem - why are we not trained to spot one or recognise one? If the company thought this wasn't a serious incident and not a potential risk to all on board that doesn't require an evacuation - why are we not told about it and trained to recognise is so this doesn't happen? After all we are the ones who will see it!
If a tailpipe fire was that common or something that was not a problem - why are we not trained to spot one or recognise one? If the company thought this wasn't a serious incident and not a potential risk to all on board that doesn't require an evacuation - why are we not told about it and trained to recognise is so this doesn't happen? After all we are the ones who will see it!
Last edited by Shadowpurser; 29th Jul 2002 at 22:06.
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Aircraft commander = the senior crew memeber on board (Captain -> F.O. -> SCCM)
CRM = crew rescource management
All on board crew using their collegues to their full potential and ensuring good lines of communication are open at all times to ensure the safe opperation of a flight.
Catastrophic = A situation that imeadiately threatens the lives of everyone on board the A/C
Forgot to answer these - hope these are ok
CRM = crew rescource management
All on board crew using their collegues to their full potential and ensuring good lines of communication are open at all times to ensure the safe opperation of a flight.
Catastrophic = A situation that imeadiately threatens the lives of everyone on board the A/C
Forgot to answer these - hope these are ok
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Thank you both Shadowpurser and Devils Advocate for your response's.
S/P I stick with you on the reply to the Judge and what a turn up for the books being banged up for saving people because we didn't wait for the commander!!!!.
Devils thank you for your excellent reply and haven flown with many 'new' F/O's I fully appriciate the hard work,studies and
dedication required to become a pilot and if the Captain
became incapacitated I would have full trust in their ability.
Both trust and CRM are a two way thing and as I trust you ,you must have trust in your cabin crew.
Historically mistakes have be made in emergency situations by both flight and cabin crew as none of us are perfect..
(are we 411A).
Maybe the time has come to approach the authrities in each country to see if we can remove evacuation command switches
from any area outside the flight deck or will common sense prevail
and allow we 'the cart tarts' to use our intellect and judgement.
Just a little footnote to finish with and yes I was there to hear it!
Captain S Marmy walks into cabin to say hello.....
In conversation Captain finds out hostie has a degree from Uni
His reply 'so what's a bright girl like you doing this job for'?
I heard this and before I could butt in.........
Hostie 'because I enjoy it,it pays more than teaching and nursing
and I'm not boring enough to do your job'!!!!!!.
Captain ' Right well better get on then'.
NJR.
S/P I stick with you on the reply to the Judge and what a turn up for the books being banged up for saving people because we didn't wait for the commander!!!!.
Devils thank you for your excellent reply and haven flown with many 'new' F/O's I fully appriciate the hard work,studies and
dedication required to become a pilot and if the Captain
became incapacitated I would have full trust in their ability.
Both trust and CRM are a two way thing and as I trust you ,you must have trust in your cabin crew.
Historically mistakes have be made in emergency situations by both flight and cabin crew as none of us are perfect..
(are we 411A).
Maybe the time has come to approach the authrities in each country to see if we can remove evacuation command switches
from any area outside the flight deck or will common sense prevail
and allow we 'the cart tarts' to use our intellect and judgement.
Just a little footnote to finish with and yes I was there to hear it!
Captain S Marmy walks into cabin to say hello.....
In conversation Captain finds out hostie has a degree from Uni
His reply 'so what's a bright girl like you doing this job for'?
I heard this and before I could butt in.........
Hostie 'because I enjoy it,it pays more than teaching and nursing
and I'm not boring enough to do your job'!!!!!!.
Captain ' Right well better get on then'.
NJR.
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 29th Jul 2002 at 23:41.
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ha ha I always say I applied to be pilot first but they told me I was over quailified!!!!
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It is the "statements" by some cabin crew here that are very worrying to many pilots (myself included).
They seem to suggest that, no matter what the Flt Ops manual says, they will "do as they like" and the Commander be damned.
Perhaps that is why some airlines (SQ for example) will employ cabin crew for rather short them contracts. In this way, not only can the airline management assure themselves of fresh new faces, but also avoid the "I'll do as I like" thinking of the more senior types.
They seem to suggest that, no matter what the Flt Ops manual says, they will "do as they like" and the Commander be damned.
Perhaps that is why some airlines (SQ for example) will employ cabin crew for rather short them contracts. In this way, not only can the airline management assure themselves of fresh new faces, but also avoid the "I'll do as I like" thinking of the more senior types.
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Shadowpurser, I would have had a lot more confidence in having you running my cabin had you said that your first action on confirming fire outside would have been to contact the Flight Deck.
Instead, you said if you saw flames licking up the outside you would evacuate a taxying aircraft.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
First EVERY TIME call the flight deck.
In the scenario you posit you have no reason to suspect they are incapacitated. Therefore the captain is still in command. They may possibly be unaware of the fire. They might just be grateful to be told about it by word of mouth rather than seeing the door caption suddenly light, the slides inflate and have ATC ask them why all their pax are going walkabout on the taxyway.
Sorry, but you've lost all my confidence. You have demonstrated that you will proceed contrary to all sense and CRM and cut the aircraft commander out of the loop, acting on assumptions about problems you admit you know nothing about. That makes you a danger to all passengers you fly with.
Instead, you said if you saw flames licking up the outside you would evacuate a taxying aircraft.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
First EVERY TIME call the flight deck.
In the scenario you posit you have no reason to suspect they are incapacitated. Therefore the captain is still in command. They may possibly be unaware of the fire. They might just be grateful to be told about it by word of mouth rather than seeing the door caption suddenly light, the slides inflate and have ATC ask them why all their pax are going walkabout on the taxyway.
Sorry, but you've lost all my confidence. You have demonstrated that you will proceed contrary to all sense and CRM and cut the aircraft commander out of the loop, acting on assumptions about problems you admit you know nothing about. That makes you a danger to all passengers you fly with.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Reading through these posts, it`s not difficult to see how a "situation" can arise today, IN SPITE of the CRM courses we are all required to attend ( but to which a lot here obviously feel they don`t need).
We have in residence, our own Captain Bligh aka 441A who runs HIS ship as HE determines - "You may start the service once, after I switch offf the seat belt sign"..........too afraid to DELEGATE duty - even to his F/O - because he believes it would be an erosion of his authority.
BTW, there`s no point in making suggestions to 411, it`s all water off a duck`s back, as he`s been around longer than the Wright Brothers. It is Captains such as he, that made CRM a necessary addition.
Then we have our Fletcher Christians, Shadow purser and the other one or two cabin crew, who can`t wait for the opportunity to show the pax who is REALLY in charge of this aircraft.
The comment passed by their ilk on previous other threads, along the lines of "What goes on, on the other side of the cockpit door is none of the Flight crew`s business", typifies their UNSAFE, peurile psyche, unsuitable for the job they do.
It`s about team work.
Quite a few posters here ON BOTH SIDES of the cockpit door have displayed their inability to act as professional, aircraft CREW, preferring instead to try to play leading solo roles!
We have in residence, our own Captain Bligh aka 441A who runs HIS ship as HE determines - "You may start the service once, after I switch offf the seat belt sign"..........too afraid to DELEGATE duty - even to his F/O - because he believes it would be an erosion of his authority.
BTW, there`s no point in making suggestions to 411, it`s all water off a duck`s back, as he`s been around longer than the Wright Brothers. It is Captains such as he, that made CRM a necessary addition.
Then we have our Fletcher Christians, Shadow purser and the other one or two cabin crew, who can`t wait for the opportunity to show the pax who is REALLY in charge of this aircraft.
The comment passed by their ilk on previous other threads, along the lines of "What goes on, on the other side of the cockpit door is none of the Flight crew`s business", typifies their UNSAFE, peurile psyche, unsuitable for the job they do.
It`s about team work.
Quite a few posters here ON BOTH SIDES of the cockpit door have displayed their inability to act as professional, aircraft CREW, preferring instead to try to play leading solo roles!
jetsy
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411A, I can understand your point.. May not like the aproach yet your point is clear.
What I have read so far here, all appears to me as a power struggle between cockpit crew and f/as. The childlish "who is more important", "who is in charge", "who has the right"... etc.
Something does not seem right here though...
ALL of the crew is there to protect the PAX.
As a FP I know what I am doing upthere but I also need the F/As to do their job to get the "load" safetly on the ground. My approach has always been to make everyone comfortable and work as a TEAM. I expect the cabin crew to inform me of things I may not see from the cockpit, but sure as hell I'll tell the F/A to be ready for any emergency evac we may encounter from the front. For the PAX sake.
As far as I am concerned I count on the cabin crew as much as they count on me.
I need to inform them of emergency evac, the same they need to inform me of the event (and why). Prior to the occurence.
Nothing complicated.
What I have read so far here, all appears to me as a power struggle between cockpit crew and f/as. The childlish "who is more important", "who is in charge", "who has the right"... etc.
Something does not seem right here though...
ALL of the crew is there to protect the PAX.
As a FP I know what I am doing upthere but I also need the F/As to do their job to get the "load" safetly on the ground. My approach has always been to make everyone comfortable and work as a TEAM. I expect the cabin crew to inform me of things I may not see from the cockpit, but sure as hell I'll tell the F/A to be ready for any emergency evac we may encounter from the front. For the PAX sake.
As far as I am concerned I count on the cabin crew as much as they count on me.
I need to inform them of emergency evac, the same they need to inform me of the event (and why). Prior to the occurence.
Nothing complicated.