How about a fine/prison for taking luggage down the slide?
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Punishment after the event will do nothing to prevent this. It just makes people in the industry feel better afterwards - 15 people dies because some idiot insisted on trying to take his bags with him, but at least he got locked up for 2 years.
Education or physical prevention are the only possible answers, and education is not a 3 minute demonstration 6 hours earlier where not smoking is repeated multiple times, but I can't remember ever being told not to take my bags if we have to evacuate.
Worse, each airline has different emergency procedures, which just adds to confusion when things go wrong, even assuming you can see the demonstration at all. A short passenger in the window seat 15 rows behind a short crew member giving the demonstration will see nothing. If you don't speak any of the languages used (normally a maximum of 2), you don't understand anything either.
All I can think of that would make a difference is for all airlines to standardise their emergency procedures and demonstrations, have passenger courses that would need to be at least 3 hours, and only permit taking hand luggage if such a course had been passed within the last 3 years.
Education or physical prevention are the only possible answers, and education is not a 3 minute demonstration 6 hours earlier where not smoking is repeated multiple times, but I can't remember ever being told not to take my bags if we have to evacuate.
Worse, each airline has different emergency procedures, which just adds to confusion when things go wrong, even assuming you can see the demonstration at all. A short passenger in the window seat 15 rows behind a short crew member giving the demonstration will see nothing. If you don't speak any of the languages used (normally a maximum of 2), you don't understand anything either.
All I can think of that would make a difference is for all airlines to standardise their emergency procedures and demonstrations, have passenger courses that would need to be at least 3 hours, and only permit taking hand luggage if such a course had been passed within the last 3 years.
takes time for the line of passengers in the aisle to start moving. Just like a normal deboarding.
So these folks likely grabbed their bags while they were waiting for their chance to move. No delay caused.
So these folks likely grabbed their bags while they were waiting for their chance to move. No delay caused.
The video started at least 20 seconds after the aircraft came to a stop. I base this on the time it takes to react and turn on a camera phone and in the first few seconds there is a girl standing in the idle with a carryon bag slung across her shoulder.
The girl in white was clearly obstructed by the guy in glasses opening the bin and retrieving his bag.
Single frames show the slide was a jumble of bags and people. With more than one bag on the surface of the slide. The slide was at a shallow angle so passengers had to walk/climb off, made more difficult if you have one hand on a bag or if bags have been dropped. Just like walking on a bouncy castle.
I believe we can do better.
Certainly if there is a tech problem and ample warning for cabin crew.
Slightly tongue in cheek, passengers who agree to evac without baggage get the aisle seats.
If I saw an a accompanied man reaching for the bin I would either man handle them forward or push them back into their seat as they are risking the lives of everyone behind them. Such action would expedite safe egress. It is the folk furtherest from the open door that are at highest risk from being overcome by just a few breaths of smoke. You are talking the difference between life and death in seconds.
If you are seated next to a family where there are more kids than adults then agree to grab a kid. Parents panicking about kids is an issue.
"Look after each other", a suitably warm and reassuring tone for an inflight saftey video.
Come on Richard Branson, be the first
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Someone, presumably with the airline, would have to make positive the identification of the offenders and record the violation.
"Hands up if you've got your passport and keys!!.... You're nicked son!
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Would playing a 'professionally produced' video of the chaos that ensued on the EK evacuation (with the associated chatter which drowns out the CC instructions) - followed by a 'public information message' in several languages outlining the hazard associated with collecting and carrying 'carry-on' luggage be a good idea - to be screened during the final approach of the aircraft - or would that induce panic among the passenger who would then assume that the aircraft was going to crash?
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A couple of points here.
First, with regard to arrest. Not everyone speaks the same language. How do you arrest someone for ignoring an announcement made in a language they don't speak? Or if the flight attendant is yelling "leave your bags" during an evacuation, what's to say the passenger even heard them in the noise and confusion? Any lawyer worth his salt is going to get that thrown out.
Locking the bins? Not going to work. Most people won't get it through their heads that they're locked (even if there's a big red sign), and at least some of those who do will just keep pulling on the bins figuring they can force them open - and further blocking the aisles. And savvy travelers who do know they can't access the bins are just going to shove more stuff under their seats.
So what's the answer? Best answer would be to separate the passengers from their luggage. A good start would be to stop charging for checked baggage. Yes, passengers will probably still want to keep their valuables with them, but surely there are many who are only lugging all that stuff into the cabin because they don't want to pay extra.
The next step might be to allow the passengers to bring their "carry on" to the door of the plane and have it placed in the hold from there - and then on landing have the bag returned to them as they disembark from the aircraft. Much less risk of something being lost or mishandled that way. I know that in the past I've flown on small commuter flights where a bus drove you out to the plane, you handed someone your bag, and then you climbed the steps. When you landed, you came down the steps, grabbed your bag, and went into the airport. No way for things to be lost or mis-routed.
Separating the passengers from their bags would also have the added benefit of improving security.
First, with regard to arrest. Not everyone speaks the same language. How do you arrest someone for ignoring an announcement made in a language they don't speak? Or if the flight attendant is yelling "leave your bags" during an evacuation, what's to say the passenger even heard them in the noise and confusion? Any lawyer worth his salt is going to get that thrown out.
Locking the bins? Not going to work. Most people won't get it through their heads that they're locked (even if there's a big red sign), and at least some of those who do will just keep pulling on the bins figuring they can force them open - and further blocking the aisles. And savvy travelers who do know they can't access the bins are just going to shove more stuff under their seats.
So what's the answer? Best answer would be to separate the passengers from their luggage. A good start would be to stop charging for checked baggage. Yes, passengers will probably still want to keep their valuables with them, but surely there are many who are only lugging all that stuff into the cabin because they don't want to pay extra.
The next step might be to allow the passengers to bring their "carry on" to the door of the plane and have it placed in the hold from there - and then on landing have the bag returned to them as they disembark from the aircraft. Much less risk of something being lost or mishandled that way. I know that in the past I've flown on small commuter flights where a bus drove you out to the plane, you handed someone your bag, and then you climbed the steps. When you landed, you came down the steps, grabbed your bag, and went into the airport. No way for things to be lost or mis-routed.
Separating the passengers from their bags would also have the added benefit of improving security.
Last edited by jugofpropwash; 5th Aug 2016 at 02:32.
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Two other notes.
Since you're not going to change human nature and a certain percentage of people are going to continue to take their bags, that should be factored into the timed escape simulations. Ultimately, making it as fast and easy as possible to grab your bag might save more time than trying to prevent it.
And, if passenger arrives at the slide carrying a substantially sized bag, someone needs to grab that bag away from them and pitch it off to the side, rather than allowing it down the slide. If passenger wants to go retrieve it after they go down the slide, that's on them.
Since you're not going to change human nature and a certain percentage of people are going to continue to take their bags, that should be factored into the timed escape simulations. Ultimately, making it as fast and easy as possible to grab your bag might save more time than trying to prevent it.
And, if passenger arrives at the slide carrying a substantially sized bag, someone needs to grab that bag away from them and pitch it off to the side, rather than allowing it down the slide. If passenger wants to go retrieve it after they go down the slide, that's on them.
Last edited by jugofpropwash; 5th Aug 2016 at 02:31.
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Come on! SLF are out of their element from well before they get on the aircraft. Even boarding, they accept it! Just because the posts are Chrome and the Ropes are Velvet, it's still moving cattle. Well MOO!!! Scare the herd and they will stampede. If you sit down with each one , you will never get through to any of them.
Fly East Coast to West Coast and look at the difference in attitude. Go international, and you are out of your element for sure.
If you are not local, you are the jerk.
Fly East Coast to West Coast and look at the difference in attitude. Go international, and you are out of your element for sure.
If you are not local, you are the jerk.
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I regularly carry camera gear worth in excess of 50k in my carryon. I would be very reluctant to leave this even in an evacuation. If you want to introduce penalties for taking it with me then you better revise the contract of carriages for all carriers worldwide to reimburse me for what's actually in there, not a pithy amount that doesn't cover a single lens.
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G-CTPN, I agree with the pro type demo video on the personal screens most aircraft now have. Language selection and a few multi question answer to be able to move onto the entertainment selections of the unit.
Leave the carry on, Do not inflate life jackets inside, be quiet and listen to CC instructions and the like.
This before take off and again prior to landing, it will need to be graphical enough to show that it can kill if not followed (CC can override and go to entertainment for small kids if required).
If people saw the bad that can happen, the will more likely comply but some never will. I also agree replacement in full for loss but would need registration somehow.
Leave the carry on, Do not inflate life jackets inside, be quiet and listen to CC instructions and the like.
This before take off and again prior to landing, it will need to be graphical enough to show that it can kill if not followed (CC can override and go to entertainment for small kids if required).
If people saw the bad that can happen, the will more likely comply but some never will. I also agree replacement in full for loss but would need registration somehow.
I'm SLF. So many good points above, but some that don't take account of practicalities. Evacuate a plane in the US without your passport - you're in detention or similar until your embassy can sort you out. Have your passport - you're free to go. So, I need my passport and if I'm taking my passport I'll take my wallet, phone, iPod, etc etc etc...until '..you know what, I'll take the whole bag..'
So airlines and XAAs and AIBs, work out how to evacuate a large plane in reasonable time, permitting some important belongings to go with the passenger. It cannot be that difficult.
So airlines and XAAs and AIBs, work out how to evacuate a large plane in reasonable time, permitting some important belongings to go with the passenger. It cannot be that difficult.
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Well said Espada. It is amazing to read some of the hysterical nonsense that finds its way onto this forum. "Lock 'em up!". "I' would knock them out" etc. Anyone who has experience of this part of the world will know how awkward life will become if you find yourself without documents. If you are a Third World national (Indian, Pakistani, Filipino etc) you could find yourself stuck there for years, literally. The consulates of many of these countries treat their own nationals no better than cattle. Look at the problems facing Indian construction workers in Saudi at the moment. They have lost their jobs and been dumped by their employers. The Indian government's response seems to be "Send 'em some sarnies", rather than get them on a plane and back home. And I am pretty sure the problems revolve around lack of documents as the employers will be holding their passports. Western nationals have the comfort of knowing that if they were stuck in a similar situation, their consulates will help them out. The passengers on that flight seemed to include a high number of families, so it is not a simple case of waltzing in with a passport in your breast pocket. I can bet they would have been carrying reams of documents such as birth certificates, education certificates etc and they would know what awaits them when they rock up at immigration with nothing! By the way, someone on the BBC calculated that the bloke making the phone video was on the tarmac within 80 seconds. As this is within the 90 second rule, where was the problem?
I regularly carry camera gear worth in excess of 50k in my carryon. I would be very reluctant to leave this even in an evacuation. If you want to introduce penalties for taking it with me then you better revise the contract of carriages for all carriers worldwide to reimburse me for what's actually in there, not a pithy amount that doesn't cover a single lens.
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Yes - outside the West it can be very sticky even after an emergency
When the BA flight lost all 4 south of Java way back and eventually made it into Jakarta Halim at some ungodly hour of the morning all the pax were taken off and lodged in local hotels until they could sort out onward flights - except one. I think he was a Pole and at that time they required a special Indonesian visa as he was a "communist".
They wouldn't let him out of the airport. They made him sleep in the departure lounge before sticking him on the first flight to S'pore in the morning.
Both the BA Captain and the British Ambassador offered their personal guarantees that he'd be delivered intact if he could stay in the hotel or the residence but "rules are rules"...... in fact he was lucky not to be arrested .................
When the BA flight lost all 4 south of Java way back and eventually made it into Jakarta Halim at some ungodly hour of the morning all the pax were taken off and lodged in local hotels until they could sort out onward flights - except one. I think he was a Pole and at that time they required a special Indonesian visa as he was a "communist".
They wouldn't let him out of the airport. They made him sleep in the departure lounge before sticking him on the first flight to S'pore in the morning.
Both the BA Captain and the British Ambassador offered their personal guarantees that he'd be delivered intact if he could stay in the hotel or the residence but "rules are rules"...... in fact he was lucky not to be arrested .................
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Ian W makes an excellent point in post 13:
"Passengers should be told to have - or be given - a body belt or shoulder bag that can contain important papers, money and small valuables. These shoulder bags could be worn during takeoff and landing and would be no hindrance to evacuation."
Give them a branded shoulder bag before check in.
If pax did not have bags with them, they would move more quickly to the gate, board and seat themselves much faster, and would leave the plane faster.
This must have a commercial value.
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I hate having to lug around a heavy carry on bag. I would much rather check it. I suspect many others feel the same way. But I don't feel that I can check all the expensive equipment I frequently carry. In order for me to do that, airlines have got to stop treating checked baggage with contempt. Airlines have created an environment in which passengers feel it is better / safer to carry on than check, so there is always going to be a risk that in a pressured and traumatic environment, passengers decide to take their bags with them again.
To cut down dramatically on the amount of carry on bags - and thus eliminate a large part of this problem - I suggest airlines come up with some sort of charter similar to the following:
* We will compensate you at fair market rates for your bag and its contents, whatever that value may be, if it is damaged, lost, stolen or destroyed while in our care, whether it is checked or left in overhead bins during an evacuation. You do not need your own insurance, while your bag is in our care it is our responsibility and we will compensate you fully
* We will make payments to you at the same level (and in the same time bands) as we do for passenger delays, if we fail to return your bag to you at the end of your journey
* We will compensate you for out of pocket expenses if we fail to return your bag to you at the end of your journey, and continue to do so until we do return your bag to you or we pay you for the loss of your bag
* We will ensure you have access to (and pay for if necessary) any medication that you may need that is in bags that are mishandled, delayed, lost or destroyed by us, whether checked or left in overhead bins during an evacuation
* We will work with the authorities to ensure that you can continue, unhindered, to your ticketed destination if your travel documents are lost by us or have to be left on an aircraft that you have to evacuate
* We will ensure that the checked baggage is on the reclaim carousel in the time it takes for the last passenger to walk to the carousel
I bet there is not one airline that is prepared to take proper responsibility for the baggage that is placed in its care, although doing so would go a long way to solving this problem in many cases.
To cut down dramatically on the amount of carry on bags - and thus eliminate a large part of this problem - I suggest airlines come up with some sort of charter similar to the following:
* We will compensate you at fair market rates for your bag and its contents, whatever that value may be, if it is damaged, lost, stolen or destroyed while in our care, whether it is checked or left in overhead bins during an evacuation. You do not need your own insurance, while your bag is in our care it is our responsibility and we will compensate you fully
* We will make payments to you at the same level (and in the same time bands) as we do for passenger delays, if we fail to return your bag to you at the end of your journey
* We will compensate you for out of pocket expenses if we fail to return your bag to you at the end of your journey, and continue to do so until we do return your bag to you or we pay you for the loss of your bag
* We will ensure you have access to (and pay for if necessary) any medication that you may need that is in bags that are mishandled, delayed, lost or destroyed by us, whether checked or left in overhead bins during an evacuation
* We will work with the authorities to ensure that you can continue, unhindered, to your ticketed destination if your travel documents are lost by us or have to be left on an aircraft that you have to evacuate
* We will ensure that the checked baggage is on the reclaim carousel in the time it takes for the last passenger to walk to the carousel
I bet there is not one airline that is prepared to take proper responsibility for the baggage that is placed in its care, although doing so would go a long way to solving this problem in many cases.
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Only educating pax will make a difference. What would help in such education is to confiscate all the bags that were taken by pax and publicly burn them. Also give $10k to each passenger that did not take bags.
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As a passenger that makes trips only with cabin baggage, I will allow myself for some comments.
I have pouch on my belt with money, passport, phone and travel documents. So I can leave my underwear and rainjacket that is stuffed in the bin overhead. And travel souvenirs. Bad luck, I will buy a new one after evacuation.
But in the original thread someone from India pointed out, that reclaiming visas, documents etc after loss is a costly, long and tedious process.
And then imagine somebody on business trip that has laptop put into the bin. Laptop is replaceable with some minor money. But the real value is the work on the laptop. FInancial data / artistic work / whatever that may not be recoverable ever.
And who will pay for that loss? Airline? Never. My insurer? Wow, have you read the smallprint on your policy?
And I find the idea to 'forbid bags on board' as a weak one. First airline that will implement it will get blasted with black PR. Not being able to take medicines / water / favourite snacks for children etc ... no, it will not work. And I personally would never choose this airline. Not being able for 4 hours to read a book, then play a while on the tablet, eat an apple, make some pictures from window?
I agree that bags on slide are strongly unwelcome. But I fear that the lot of passengers will take their carry-ons with them anyway. Just because they feel that some things inside are very valuable or irreplaceable. Locking bins will not help, will cause chaos.
I fear that the process of making a remedy for that misbehaviour will produce some deadly solution.
Thus said I return into reading mode.
I have pouch on my belt with money, passport, phone and travel documents. So I can leave my underwear and rainjacket that is stuffed in the bin overhead. And travel souvenirs. Bad luck, I will buy a new one after evacuation.
But in the original thread someone from India pointed out, that reclaiming visas, documents etc after loss is a costly, long and tedious process.
And then imagine somebody on business trip that has laptop put into the bin. Laptop is replaceable with some minor money. But the real value is the work on the laptop. FInancial data / artistic work / whatever that may not be recoverable ever.
And who will pay for that loss? Airline? Never. My insurer? Wow, have you read the smallprint on your policy?
And I find the idea to 'forbid bags on board' as a weak one. First airline that will implement it will get blasted with black PR. Not being able to take medicines / water / favourite snacks for children etc ... no, it will not work. And I personally would never choose this airline. Not being able for 4 hours to read a book, then play a while on the tablet, eat an apple, make some pictures from window?
I agree that bags on slide are strongly unwelcome. But I fear that the lot of passengers will take their carry-ons with them anyway. Just because they feel that some things inside are very valuable or irreplaceable. Locking bins will not help, will cause chaos.
I fear that the process of making a remedy for that misbehaviour will produce some deadly solution.
Thus said I return into reading mode.
Indeed, lowca!
If airlines didn't cram as many people into such a confined space as they do, there'd be less of an evacuation problem. But the risk of having their carry-on bags stolen or lost means that people WILL try to take their belongings with them during an evacuation.
If airline baggage handlers took greater care and there was less theft at airports, perhaps people would be prepared to trust their belongings to the hold. But they won't at present - the number of 'aeroplane mountaineers' with their large backpacks is just ridiculous nowadays. Particularly on LoCo airlines which charge for hold luggage, as I saw when I was unfortunate enough to have to travel with one earlier this year. On arrival, queuing for passport control is bad enough, but many travellers will do anything to avoid waiting ages for their bags to be delivered at the carousel.
If airlines didn't cram as many people into such a confined space as they do, there'd be less of an evacuation problem. But the risk of having their carry-on bags stolen or lost means that people WILL try to take their belongings with them during an evacuation.
If airline baggage handlers took greater care and there was less theft at airports, perhaps people would be prepared to trust their belongings to the hold. But they won't at present - the number of 'aeroplane mountaineers' with their large backpacks is just ridiculous nowadays. Particularly on LoCo airlines which charge for hold luggage, as I saw when I was unfortunate enough to have to travel with one earlier this year. On arrival, queuing for passport control is bad enough, but many travellers will do anything to avoid waiting ages for their bags to be delivered at the carousel.
