Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
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We can focus on obvious things like the need of increasing thrust in a GA.
But I hope the investigation committee will say something about the punitive environment at this airlines (and also other airlines), which for me is the basis of this accident. It prevents pilots from properly flying their aircraft and/or execute proper judgement and make them act as robots instead.
But I hope the investigation committee will say something about the punitive environment at this airlines (and also other airlines), which for me is the basis of this accident. It prevents pilots from properly flying their aircraft and/or execute proper judgement and make them act as robots instead.
The gear coming up may have been a clue.
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I understand where you are coming from, however a Go Around with F/D's and A/T off should not be any drama. Power + Attitude = Performance seems to work.
However if you are intent on reverting back to automatics ASAP then you have a point.
Personally I'm a big fan of hand flying on my sector with all automatics off till through transition, or higher, especially when it's CAVOK.
To be honest if you fronted up and the DDG MEL presented you with a u/s autopilot, could you in all good conscience knock back the flight? We are after all two crew.
However if you are intent on reverting back to automatics ASAP then you have a point.
Personally I'm a big fan of hand flying on my sector with all automatics off till through transition, or higher, especially when it's CAVOK.
To be honest if you fronted up and the DDG MEL presented you with a u/s autopilot, could you in all good conscience knock back the flight? We are after all two crew.
To be honest if you fronted up and the DDG MEL presented you with a u/s autopilot, could you in all good conscience knock back the flight?
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Well that certainly made for some interesting reading. If anything it confirmed what we already knew.
My thoughts are, if I was the PM on that sector I would sure as hell push those thrust levers up myself at any speed below VREF. I have had to take corrective action twice in my aviation career so far - once from a captain and once from an FO and I'd do it again if necessary. At the end of the day it is your arse on the line too, so who cares what the other guy thinks just get in there and do it if he/she is clearly unaware. If they have an issue with it you can sort it out later on the ground when everyone is still alive!
It goes to show the level of complacency we now have with automation. I won't go into that as it has been done to death in here, but it really does boggle the mind that two seemingly professional pilots could not complete one of the most basic aviation maneuvers that any pilot should be able to do with their eyes closed. Maybe it is a training issue, or an experience one, who knows, but something needs to change because we are heading down a dangerous path that has been decades in the making. Either take the pilots out of the cockpit altogether or give them a lot of training to make them much better!
My thoughts are, if I was the PM on that sector I would sure as hell push those thrust levers up myself at any speed below VREF. I have had to take corrective action twice in my aviation career so far - once from a captain and once from an FO and I'd do it again if necessary. At the end of the day it is your arse on the line too, so who cares what the other guy thinks just get in there and do it if he/she is clearly unaware. If they have an issue with it you can sort it out later on the ground when everyone is still alive!
It goes to show the level of complacency we now have with automation. I won't go into that as it has been done to death in here, but it really does boggle the mind that two seemingly professional pilots could not complete one of the most basic aviation maneuvers that any pilot should be able to do with their eyes closed. Maybe it is a training issue, or an experience one, who knows, but something needs to change because we are heading down a dangerous path that has been decades in the making. Either take the pilots out of the cockpit altogether or give them a lot of training to make them much better!
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gazumped
Nobody knows what their manual flying skills were like? They may have been keen on flying frequent manual approaches? Though comments here might seem to suggest that may not be 'encouraged' at this airline? But all those handling skills are useless if they've never (hardly ever?) seen a go-around after landing?
What 'appears' to have caught this crew out, is that the TOGA buttons (if they were pressed??) did not behave as they expected, and at a pretty busy time, it took 12 secs to recognise that fact.
Anybody with a professional license will be perfectly capable of flying a go-around after landing, IF PROPERLY TRAINED AND PREPARED FOR IT!!!
If they weren't given adequate training, it's difficult to place the fault at their door! If they were well trained, but simply unprepared, only then are we into examining human failings. Even at that point, we need to look at how intuitive the system is at that critical phase, and whether it could be more helpful?
I have to say, on first glance, it seems to me that in this precise little dark corner of flying a modern jet, Airbus looks more intuitive than Boeing!
Having flown both, that's quite some statement!!
Nobody knows what their manual flying skills were like? They may have been keen on flying frequent manual approaches? Though comments here might seem to suggest that may not be 'encouraged' at this airline? But all those handling skills are useless if they've never (hardly ever?) seen a go-around after landing?
What 'appears' to have caught this crew out, is that the TOGA buttons (if they were pressed??) did not behave as they expected, and at a pretty busy time, it took 12 secs to recognise that fact.
Anybody with a professional license will be perfectly capable of flying a go-around after landing, IF PROPERLY TRAINED AND PREPARED FOR IT!!!
If they weren't given adequate training, it's difficult to place the fault at their door! If they were well trained, but simply unprepared, only then are we into examining human failings. Even at that point, we need to look at how intuitive the system is at that critical phase, and whether it could be more helpful?
I have to say, on first glance, it seems to me that in this precise little dark corner of flying a modern jet, Airbus looks more intuitive than Boeing!
Having flown both, that's quite some statement!!
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"Airbus more intuitive than Boeing in this corner "
Agreed , except as someone else posted the Airbus G/A in this situation isn't that straightforward either as you will get a Config warning as soon as you advance the thrust levers and have to restrain yourself from planking the thing back on or retarding the levers again (motor programme) this has happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series , nasty , as the spoilers have joined as well hastening your downward progress !
Agreed , except as someone else posted the Airbus G/A in this situation isn't that straightforward either as you will get a Config warning as soon as you advance the thrust levers and have to restrain yourself from planking the thing back on or retarding the levers again (motor programme) this has happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series , nasty , as the spoilers have joined as well hastening your downward progress !
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Seems the TOGA inhibit was missed as discussed far, far earlier in this thread.
Ironically the FCOM procedure states, immediately after PM positions the flaps to 20,
Verify:
The rotation to Go-Around attitude
that the thrust increases
This section covers both the PF and the PM columns.
After that the PM column contains:
Verify that the thrust is sufficient for the go-around or adjust as needed
This is prior to calling positive rate. My personal habit is that being so close to terra firma then I will push the levers forward and expect my colleague to have his hands there as well to verify.
Sadly, albeit for probably many reasons, a poorly executed manoeuvre.
Ironically the FCOM procedure states, immediately after PM positions the flaps to 20,
Verify:
The rotation to Go-Around attitude
that the thrust increases
This section covers both the PF and the PM columns.
After that the PM column contains:
Verify that the thrust is sufficient for the go-around or adjust as needed
This is prior to calling positive rate. My personal habit is that being so close to terra firma then I will push the levers forward and expect my colleague to have his hands there as well to verify.
Sadly, albeit for probably many reasons, a poorly executed manoeuvre.
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Nil further
You do of course receive a completely valid take off config warning on both Airbus and Boeing when conducting this manoeuvre. There's no difference between manufacturers in that regard.
Where has that "happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series", and (not that I've ever heard of it, but) even if you did retard the T/Ls, isn't it wheel spin up, plus WoWs that triggers spoiler deployment? I no longer have my Airbus books, but how would that "hasten your downward progress"? I'm afraid I'm not following? Is it just because the wheels are spinning, with no WoWs requirement?? I genuinely can't recall.
Cheers
You do of course receive a completely valid take off config warning on both Airbus and Boeing when conducting this manoeuvre. There's no difference between manufacturers in that regard.
Where has that "happened a fair bit on the narrow body Ab series", and (not that I've ever heard of it, but) even if you did retard the T/Ls, isn't it wheel spin up, plus WoWs that triggers spoiler deployment? I no longer have my Airbus books, but how would that "hasten your downward progress"? I'm afraid I'm not following? Is it just because the wheels are spinning, with no WoWs requirement?? I genuinely can't recall.
Cheers
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Anybody with a professional license will be perfectly capable of flying a go-around after landing, IF PROPERLY TRAINED AND PREPARED FOR IT!!!
If they weren't given adequate training, it's difficult to place the fault at their door!
Were you there RAT? Did you see what they saw out the window? Are you aware of the Company SOP they operate under?
Go-arounds happen every day. Most go as planned. This one didn't. **** happens.
Go-arounds happen every day. Most go as planned. This one didn't. **** happens.
and expect my colleague to have his hands there as well to verify
The last thing you want is two pairs of hands doing something to the thrust levers. A recipe for confusion on who the hell is flying the thing. In any case the co-pilot has a set of eyes. He just needs to look at the thrust levers to know what is going on. Riding the controls as some captains do if the co-pilot is PF and vice versa, is most annoying, distracting and unnecessary.
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RAAS
We have RAAS on BA777s but it doesn't have this "long landing" callout.
Is this an option, and what are the parameters?
In Emirates is a go-around / baulked landing obligatory?
We have RAAS on BA777s but it doesn't have this "long landing" callout.
Is this an option, and what are the parameters?
In Emirates is a go-around / baulked landing obligatory?
How many posters here would have stayed on the ground after wheels touched?
At our mob the GA procedure has an extra step after pressing TOGA and flaps 20, to read out the modes on the PFD including autopilot or Flight director, before calling for positive rate and gear up. One of the reasons is to ensure TOGA is annunciated and actioned. The Emirates SOP's in the appendix omits this step. Would it have made a difference? Who knows.