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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

Old 4th Aug 2016, 21:37
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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..but this is, after all, a rumour forum. Wasting time is pretty well what this is all about, don'tcha think?
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 21:40
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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In a 777 cockpit (I have never flown one) what does the call out for "positive rate" mean...?
According to our 777 FCOM:
'Verify a positive rate of climb on the altimeter and call “POSITIVE RATE.”'

According to our 777 FCTM:
'Retract the landing gear after a positive rate of climb is indicated on the altimeter.'

Our Airbus manuals are worded differently:
'Announce positive climb, when the vertical speed indication is positive and radio height has increased.'
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 21:58
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
According to our 777 FCOM:
'Verify a positive rate of climb on the altimeter and call “POSITIVE RATE.”'

According to our 777 FCTM:
'Retract the landing gear after a positive rate of climb is indicated on the altimeter.'

Our Airbus manuals are worded differently:
'Announce positive climb, when the vertical speed indication is positive and radio height has increased.'

This is all correct when u fly in normal conditions, when things go wrong PIC will callout what he want, therefore we need to wait until investigators listen to CVR and make judgment who to blame....

After all I might say regardless who's fault it is I am happy all survived.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 22:00
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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If you cannot tell the difference between the two incidents then I hope you are not flight deck crew.
IanW - let's concentrate on the similarities with SQ and EK and any one of a number of situations where hard lessons have been learned: a fire in an airframe containing tonnes of flammable liquid, and the value of precious seconds.

Give me the EK crew's response any time.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 22:42
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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Forgive my probably ignorant comment. Does instrument lag enter the equation or are the aircrew relying on external observations, looking out of the window?

There is obviously some processing lag in the instruments, but for the important stuff (e.g. altitude) it's small - on the order of a tenth of a second.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 22:43
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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In this article linked earlier (Australian co-pilot Jeremy Webb escaped Emirates plane crash in Dubai) is a picture of the aircraft from behind showing clear damage at the tail indicating contact with the ground only possible I assume at higher pitch? I am not a commercial pilot but could that indicate that they were increasing pitch for a GA without enough thrust and then settled down tail first on the runway...?

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/0...d56bee56bcab59
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 22:58
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CAPTDOUG View Post
I slammed the throttles forward attempting a G/A but the aircraft didn't respond. Control was marginal and I didn't call for gear up as we continued marginally uncontrolled descent.. ......Mystery sheet happens in aviation.
Cap Doug, "aircraft didn't respond" I am guessing due to spool up and wind shear? Engines did respond, however, correct? The reason I ask is the TLA resolvers (self-powered) and FADEC systems on this aircraft are isolated and self-contained, and self-monitoring with dual redundancy on all of the above per engine as I am sure you know. Just looking for clarification, thank you.

Originally Posted by goeasy View Post
Always possible the PM grabbed the gear leaver instead of flap lever in fright of wake/heavy bounce, and unexpected go around call........
Different grip and movement, one would think muscle memory would have prevented this from happening if the PM's mental intention was flaps first.

Originally Posted by Obama57 View Post
(Note a conceptual similarity with SFO 777 auto thrust; it's so much easier to blame the human, demand more training, vigilance, monitoring; opposed to re-engineering the aircraft to help the often resource limited pilot).

I will admit that Korean Air pilots are usually resource limited, however, it should be noted that San Francisco, that day, was clear and a million, and it was a visual approach, for goodness sake's!
I chalk that one up to a line training SNAFU. It is a known human factors issue.

Last edited by vapilot2004; 5th Aug 2016 at 00:24.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 22:58
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of people have already made reference to it, Wirbelstrum being one of them. I have since trawled my manuals and can only find one reference in the BFCTM. I thought the info I was looking for was in the FCOM Automatics! I am sure there is some logic along the lines of.......if you are less than 5' for more or less than 2 seconds one condition will not give you FD guidance and the other will not give you thrust, requiring manual input.....buggered if I can find the reference!

Regards

GBD
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 23:04
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Crickey there are a lot of duplicate replies in here.

Can I please suggest you all read the thread before simply saying the same things over and over again.

Does anyone have anything NEW?
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 23:09
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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One of the things in all of my career as an Mil ATCO was this ingrained mantra of AVIATE-NAVIGATE-COMMUNICATE (mentioned earlier by DaveReid I believe).

Bouncing down the runway then there will be a great deal of "aviating" going on, but zero need for any navigation and perhaps a great need to communicate.

Perhaps it is time to consider changing this to AVIATE-COMMUNICATE-NAVIGATE. After all, there are folk on the end of the radio who can help with the latter part. Sadly we couldn't be of much help in the aviating bit but certainly bailed a few out of grief with the navigation part, but only after they had wasted time trying to sort it themselves when they were at their busiest.

I often discussed this with FJ pilots and it was always a very interesting debate. The worrying part was that the most common response for doing it the A-N-C way was "well...that's how it has always been done".

I fully understand that there will be times when A-N-C is appropriate but I would suggest there are more occasions when A-C-N would be the sensible option.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 23:29
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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Tha ATC recording is probably from ATC Live. From listening to other airports on the website it doesn't stay on 1 frequency but jumps around to a couple frequencies in use at the airport. You don't get a complete picture of all transmissions, so careful making any conclusions through this median.
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 00:46
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes View Post
It is only when you know about a subject that you realise how absolutely crap the reporting is.

I would like to bet the following were all false reports:

4)The tower told the crew to check the gear was down
I think the widely reported, but erroneous, media item about the tower gear check came from an early posting on the Aviation Herald which Simon has now corrected.

From the comment thread on the AV Herald EK521 article:

ATC call
By John smith on Thursday, Aug 4th 2016 07:46Z

ATC call is "good afternoon, continue approach, plan to vacate M9" I can understand how that sounds a little like the gear, but it's a standard ATC call

@ John Smith Aug 4th 07:46z
By Simon Hradecky on Thursday, Aug 4th 2016 08:55Z

Thanks a lot for your heads up. A review of the recording indeed showed, in connection with the reply of the crew, that your reading of the recording is correct, several (trained) listeners involved by AVH and myself were absolutely certain this was a reminder regarding the landing gear until your possible interpretation arrived.
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 01:22
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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The Western Australian has used the videos from this incident to create a video on leaving your OH baggage behind and properly evacuating an ac.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa...baggage/#page1
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 03:08
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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Dubai ATC don't make a ''check gear' call. What they will do is tell you where they wish you to vacate the runway.
Inadvertant AT disconnect is unlikely in a 777.
Aviate Navigate Communicate always for me.
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 03:23
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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I see that evacuating passengers were burning their feet on the 49C tarmac.


Not a good idea to be in bare feet on take off or landing, always leave your shoes on.
You never know.
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 04:02
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps it is time to consider changing this to AVIATE-COMMUNICATE-NAVIGATE.

Umm....perhaps it's not..

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Old 5th Aug 2016, 04:08
  #397 (permalink)  
 
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I see that evacuating passengers were burning their feet on the 49C tarmac. Not a good idea to be in bare feet on take off or landing, always leave your shoes on.
I thought required SOP for using the evacuation slides was "Shoes OFF".

To avoid tearing and deflating the slide, or catching a foot in a crevice or fold and breaking a leg.

Or is this like grabbing luggage - "I'll do what is best for my feet - and screw the SOPs and everyone else!"
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 04:12
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
I see that evacuating passengers were burning their feet on the 49C tarmac.


Not a good idea to be in bare feet on take off or landing, always leave your shoes on.
You never know.
Stilton - yup I always leave my shoes on - I always wonder why some pax settle in, shoes off, blankets on, eye shades on before we've even left the gate.

Flew SAA for the first time in a looooonnnnggg time last month - thought their policy of NO Blankets taxi/TO/Land was brilliant
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 04:58
  #399 (permalink)  
 
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I fly EK all the time & on each & every flight regardless of the class of service at push back the cabin crew do the following

1) Ask you to disconnect cell phone charging & put away loose cables
2) Put your shoes on
3) Every piece of hand luggage no matter how small put into a bin & not even in front of you
4) Every glass cup towel news paper is asked to be tucked away
5) in Economy blankets are usually not there on the sub continent flights & are handed out on demand post take off. US & Europe flights they are in place on your seat.
6) Kids are firmly asked to sit in place.
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Old 5th Aug 2016, 05:04
  #400 (permalink)  
 
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I thought required SOP for using the evacuation slides was "Shoes OFF".
Perhaps if you were wearing high heels. Our seat pocket safety cards used to specify leaving shoes on for takeoff and landing, so I took this to mean that you'd need to keep them on during an evac.
At what point would you take off your shoes? Personally, I'd prefer running over burning pieces of twisted metal and plastic in sturdy, enclosed shoes, thanks (and I remember a time when check-in staff would ask pax to put on sensible shoes if they turned up at the desk in less-than-suitable footwear).
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