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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:56
  #1421 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: toofaraway
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Germanwings a low cost carrier?

I'm not sure it is, in the Ryanair or EasyJet sense. Too many costs inherited from the DLH business model.
Up to now (fingers crossed) the European true Low Cost Carriers have an excellent safety record.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:58
  #1422 (permalink)  
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I beg to differ with your opinion that all is hunky dory in the balance between profitability and safety.

The strikes and threats of strikes suggest the boundary has been reached or even crossed.

My statement is a general one about the complexity of the interactions, there is no fact which links the disaster to industrial unrest, but several people have intimated this could play a role.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 18:59
  #1423 (permalink)  
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Why was the 'self improver' route curtailed? Was there any evidence that airline pilots who had come up that way were not up to snuff?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:00
  #1424 (permalink)  
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It would be nice if this accident highlighted to the various aviation authorities the utter futility of making pilots go through airport security and have bottles of water removed etc. I am not saying all airport security for pilots should be removed but to impose the same restrictions on pilots as for passengers is clearly inappropriate. The present security restrictions can have an adverse effect on safety when it results in flight crew being heckled for queue jumping and results in them arriving at the aircraft late, frustrated and in a harassed frame of mind.

A suicidal pilot does not need weapons and could ensure total destruction of the aircraft whether he is alone or whether there are 2,3 or 4 people in the flight deck. I am not going into detail. As Nigel on Draft mentioned earlier a suicidal cabin crew member left in the flight deck with an unsuspecting Captain or First Officer can equally take over. No solution is foolproof.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:02
  #1425 (permalink)  
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BBC News 24 - Expert - Cpt Mike Vivian ex Head of Ops CAA
At frigging last an expert rather than a so called expert. Interview for 5 mins or so. Knowledgeable, respectful, articulate, immediate understandable answer, not too much Pilot jargon. Put it over very well even with the Easyjet announcement mid interview.
At last, thank you Mike
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:04
  #1426 (permalink)  
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on the italian press there is a report from the german faz.net newspaper that the copilot had suffered several years ago a "burn out" syndrome and decided to stop to fly for a while.....so...if this is true things start to be more clear regarding the mental situation of this man...
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:04
  #1427 (permalink)  
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I think a word of appreciation to the manufacturers of the CVR is in order. About the only thing that wasn't pulverised - fit for purpose. If we had been reliant on the FDR the mystery might have taken a lot longer to unravel - if at all.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:05
  #1428 (permalink)  
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What happened in the last few pages, now it is a poor FO who was bullied by his captain and we should find blame elsewhere?

Get real guys, this character willfully locked the captain out and decided to play kamikaze.

If he wasn't some young kid whose license was barely dry buying a job with a loco as so many others do here we wouldn't be having this conversation and the 144 passengers would be sitting home with loved ones.

There is only one person to blame here, the FO.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:05
  #1429 (permalink)  
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@Twiglet1 - agreed-here's a link to the interview if anyone wants to listen. BBC Radio 5 live - In Short, Former Head of CAA Flight Ops: Germanwings voice recorder reports 'don't add up'
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:06
  #1430 (permalink)  
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In historical cases of pilot suicide/deliberate action, has there been a recurring motive?
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:07
  #1431 (permalink)  
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2 People in the Cockpit Is Some Help

bratschewurst is absolutely right that the ability/insanity that would allow a person to fly a plane full of people into the ground is not necessarily the same one that will allow someone to beat a coworker to death with the limited weapons in the cockpit.

I'm not a psychiatrist treating the murderously insane, but it seems to this layperson that having to beat a flight attendant to death or unconsciousness would probably stop most of the limited group of pilots insane enough to want to kill a planeload of people. And perhaps those with that special kind of crazy that would allow beating someone to death up close and personal could be more easily screened out than those merely insane enough to want to kill many strangers when killing themselves.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:09
  #1432 (permalink)  
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Thomas Cook Changing Procedure

Search : thomas cook - ITV News
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:10
  #1433 (permalink)  
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All this speculation on door security or automation is moot. IF you cannot trust a pilot to always act with the safety of his/her aircraft as first priority and those on the ground second... then what?

My career was ATC. You pilots know your side, but a determined individual sitting up front can kill with certainty on takeoff or short final, ( esp in wx or IMC ) a lot more than cruise flight regardless of another pilot in cockpit or not. And too.. an Airbus would not react well to left seat fighting the right seat for control, no?

No one can automate out intent. Once we go down the rabbit hole of not trusting one pilot actions... commercial aviation is doomed. Unacceptable risk.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:11
  #1434 (permalink)  
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I read something a while back about people with 'suicidal tendencies'. At least according to the article, it is quite common that when someone becomes suicidal, they do not consider the consequences of their action on other people. It's not that they don't care that other people may die, the thought that they could be killing other people never even occurs to them. Hence the person who turns their car into oncoming traffic never even thinks about the possibility that people in the car they collide with may be seriously hurt or killed.
Rather scary if true, but it would help explain things.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:12
  #1435 (permalink)  
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There has been criticism from posters of the prosecutor releasing info too early. French Public Law is very different to the common law practiced in many Western countries. For example I believe the prosecutor is usually a judge not just an attorney.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:14
  #1436 (permalink)  
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Experienced Captains, especially in Asia have an understanding of what probably happened in this case, it was likely not suicide. It was probably "bunny in the headlights" syndrome. It happens a lot, in my personal experience, with low hour First Officers. They get themselves into situations they don't know how to get out of, they are paralysed with fear and they just wait for the Captain to rescue them. This may happen less in Europe but of course it happens. These guys that I fly with come out of renowned worldwide training schools. What is unusual in this case is that the First Officer got himself into this situation in the cruise and when the Captain could not rescue him, this was bad luck.

I have laughed along with co-pilots at the foolish things that they have done as we both knew that it was part of their learning experience.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:15
  #1437 (permalink)  
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As others have said I am not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft, all it would take is for the remaining handling pilot to quickly shut off the engines and or electrics and announce you have control while the person who left the flight is locked out.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:15
  #1438 (permalink)  
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The statistics prove you wrong. Airline strikes have been going on for decades. Flying is safer than ever, and cheaper than ever. The is zero correlation between safety and the cost base of the airline in the Western World.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:17
  #1439 (permalink)  
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The Audio Adds Up for Me

While the former CAA official may have done a great job in his interview, I don't agree that the audio of the captain trying to break in doesn't add up. It adds up for me. The captain was trying to beat the door down because he didn't have an angle grinder, pry bar or other tool that might actually do the job.

It doesn't matter how secure you tell me a lightweight aluminum-framed door is, if the person on the other side has control of a plane and is flying me into the ground, I will use the best tools I can find to try to get through that door. If I have no tool better than my shoulder (or a beverage cart), that's what I'll use. Now, if the door looked like a bank vault door, I wouldn't bother, but they don't look like bank vaults.

What was the alternative? Trying to smash a medical oxygen cylinder through a window to depressurize the cabin? I don't think that would work either. Pounding on the door may have been the least bad option.
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Old 26th Mar 2015, 19:19
  #1440 (permalink)  
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@No Fly Zone: You say: "To my mind, there is still one critical piece of evidence (in support of the FO's intentional destruction of the aircraft) that I have not seen; some reasonable proof that Lubitz was awake/alert during the last 8-10 minutes of the flight. Some evidence may have been offered, but I have not yet seen it. "

Is the data from the transponder returns showing SEL ALT changing from FL380 to 96 feet whilst the captain was out of the flight deck not indicative of deliberate action on behalf of the only occupant of the locked flight deck? It seems that this data was passed to BEA on the day of the accident so likely included in the assessment of what happened?
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