Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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oldoberon
not at all but it seems he has been hung drawn and quartered just because the BEA says thats what happened ....and we all know how the concorde investigation went
but those in a state of confusion though strokes/fits etc can do things that they think are normal sorry but even someone that is trying to kill themselfs do not stay in a stable state of breathing as like every person the body goes in to flight or fight mode and readies itself its a human reaction that nobody can control
not at all but it seems he has been hung drawn and quartered just because the BEA says thats what happened ....and we all know how the concorde investigation went
but those in a state of confusion though strokes/fits etc can do things that they think are normal sorry but even someone that is trying to kill themselfs do not stay in a stable state of breathing as like every person the body goes in to flight or fight mode and readies itself its a human reaction that nobody can control
Last edited by andyjoy; 26th Mar 2015 at 17:35. Reason: missed user name
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The ability of one pilot being able to commit suicide by taking out the whole plane, by locking out the other pilot has got to end.
My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.
Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.
My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.
Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.
any way if a hijacker held a gun to your head and put your finger over the scanner bingo he is in, without the PIC authorising the entry.
See here: We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat
for the couple of seconds during which SEL ALT was changed from 38,000ft to 100ft.
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hmm one has to be one big sick MF with ice for a heart to point a gun to the head of 149 people including children and wait calmly for the trigger to be pulled in about 8 minutes or so, without a sound, ignoring everyone.
IMV this has nothing to do with depression.
Regarding the cockpit door: replace the expensive door lock systems by an air marshal, close enough to the cockpit.
IMV this has nothing to do with depression.
Regarding the cockpit door: replace the expensive door lock systems by an air marshal, close enough to the cockpit.
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Not Terrorism Not SUICIDE
There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.
The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.
Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.
The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.
Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
A thought;
Simply move the cockpit door rearwards so that the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck, (sorry passengers - you will have to use the rear toilets). That way, no pilot can be locked out of the flight deck while going to the loo.
The only time that either pilot would then need to go through the locked door would be to board or de-plane at each end of their flying duty.
The controls and operation of the locked cockpit door by the pilots would be just the same as it is now, but the door would be moved about a meter back.
Simply move the cockpit door rearwards so that the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck, (sorry passengers - you will have to use the rear toilets). That way, no pilot can be locked out of the flight deck while going to the loo.
The only time that either pilot would then need to go through the locked door would be to board or de-plane at each end of their flying duty.
The controls and operation of the locked cockpit door by the pilots would be just the same as it is now, but the door would be moved about a meter back.
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And then what if the Air Marshal then has nefarious intentions? We just keep going round and round in circles. At the end of the day we just have to accept that in life we live with some very sick people who have the potential to cause us harm. We can never get rid of this risk completely just as we can't get rid of the element of risk in all parts of life. What if a tree fell down and killed someone, do we then chop down all trees so they can't harm anyone any more?
Is it horrific and tragic what has happened but it is exactly the same as what happened in Mumbai or in Sandy Hook or in Columbine High School. If someone wants to cause other people harm they will do, regardless of what we do.
Is it horrific and tragic what has happened but it is exactly the same as what happened in Mumbai or in Sandy Hook or in Columbine High School. If someone wants to cause other people harm they will do, regardless of what we do.
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Cost conscious airlines versus diligent training and working conditions
In my mind it is unavoidable that airlines will work constantly towards lowest possible cost. They can hardly be blamed for that, as after the de-regulation of air travel and the abolition of state supported airlines, the role of the CEO is to ensure maximum long term return on investment for his shareholders. All other aims to him are secondary, it is simply economics.
This automatically implies government or supra-governmental organizations will need to ensure this normal drive does not affect safety. Safety can never be self regulatory and requires stiff regulation. Not easy.
This automatically implies government or supra-governmental organizations will need to ensure this normal drive does not affect safety. Safety can never be self regulatory and requires stiff regulation. Not easy.
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Nothing that I've read so far mentions the captain saying anything while trying to get back onto the flight deck. Surely, before setting to with whatever he was using to try to open the door, he would have called to the FO, and the FO would presumably have replied.
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Hi Keef,
From recollection, the prosecutor mentioned that the captain at first knocked gently and later was more forceful on attempting to re-enter, I am assuming this will have included verbal attempts.
The prosecutor also said that the FO did not utter a single word after the Captain left the flight deck. This must therefore mean he did not pick up the intercom nor replied to the captain through the door.
From recollection, the prosecutor mentioned that the captain at first knocked gently and later was more forceful on attempting to re-enter, I am assuming this will have included verbal attempts.
The prosecutor also said that the FO did not utter a single word after the Captain left the flight deck. This must therefore mean he did not pick up the intercom nor replied to the captain through the door.
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Sorry it is in French, Norwegian doing an "Easy" .
http://www.lalibre.be/actu/internati...707e3e941f7af8
http://www.lalibre.be/actu/internati...707e3e941f7af8
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vanHork
Airline safety is better than it has been for a LONG time. Please provide evidence that the current approach to business is not as safe as the state run airlines once were.
I can't think of anywhere where safety is self regulating. There are regulators to oversee safety.
And with respect all of the previous examples of pilot suicide have been national carriers/full service/state airlines. Let's stop the LCC bashing.
I can't think of anywhere where safety is self regulating. There are regulators to oversee safety.
And with respect all of the previous examples of pilot suicide have been national carriers/full service/state airlines. Let's stop the LCC bashing.
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"The Thought Process behind suicide"
There is no one (logical or illogical) thought process at work in cases of suicide in general. Only a complex, individual-specific multitude of factors - including - but not limited to - external stressors (e.g. Financial or relationship problems); poor coping strategies, developmental factors, addiction, mental health issues / diagnoses). The thought process in psychosis would not be described as logical, and suicide may occur secondary to a delusional process, command hallucinations, PTSD or other symptoms. Incidentally, this can actually be accurately described as a suicide/homicide. There will never just be one 'reason' to explain a complex interplay of biological, social, psychological, environmental stressors and factors. From a mental health professional - not a pilot.
This is story is really both tragic and hard to believe.
That being said I think we have to recognize that it would be tremendously complex - if not impossible - to setup a system that would prevent a repeat with a high degree of confidence. Simply put if a pilot wants to crash the plane he can do it. Yes some protections could be put in place but they would create new issues by themselves - on a pure risk / reward / cost analysis I guess the best action is to do nothing I leve with the (thankfully) very very low risk of another such atrocity.
That being said I think we have to recognize that it would be tremendously complex - if not impossible - to setup a system that would prevent a repeat with a high degree of confidence. Simply put if a pilot wants to crash the plane he can do it. Yes some protections could be put in place but they would create new issues by themselves - on a pure risk / reward / cost analysis I guess the best action is to do nothing I leve with the (thankfully) very very low risk of another such atrocity.
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banjodrone
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.
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There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.
The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.
Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.
The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.
Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood
I can remember reading a book written by psychos about stress in flying when I was heavily involved in training.
It was a very interesting read and I can still remember smiling hugely at the comment that:
"7% of pilots holding a CPL or higher are, technically speaking, clinically mad".
Despite the odd (no pun intended) eccentric student, I never really felt that this was a valid figure but I am beginning to wonder.
It was a very interesting read and I can still remember smiling hugely at the comment that:
"7% of pilots holding a CPL or higher are, technically speaking, clinically mad".
Despite the odd (no pun intended) eccentric student, I never really felt that this was a valid figure but I am beginning to wonder.
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G-ARVH, you are correct in saying that change is needed in this industry.
That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.
Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.
Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.
It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….
That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.
Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.
Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.
It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….
