Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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the 1 thing that really does not sit well with me is that the FO was breathing normally and never said a word yet people were screaming in the cabin
knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness
this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation
knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness
this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation
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But then again, a civilian flight school is a business where the primary purpose is to make money.
The problem is that the old BA flight scheme of many decades back (or the RAF) had thousands of candidates to choose from. The modern school has one - the guy at the front desk with a chequebook. And the basic aptitude of that candidate, in terms of intelligence, cognitive ability and hand-eye coordination may be excellent, good, intermediate or dire. But he still ticks the box and gets the job, because he (or she) is cheap.
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G-ARVH, you are correct in saying that change is needed in this industry.
That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.
Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.
Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.
It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….
That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.
Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.
Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.
It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….
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a 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC
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T250:
This is taken from the statement made in the briefing earlier today by Brice Robin:
(quote taken from BBC reporting and widely substantiated in other outlets).
Why are the media saying that most of the pax were unaware of the situation until the last moments.
I think that the victims did not realise what was happening until the last moment, the very last moment. Because in the recording, we could only hear the cries at the last moment, just before the impact with the ground.
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So many folks in so many jobs are "vulnerable," but incredibly difficult to predict when it will become dangerous. Could the conditions of his employment be any worse than those of thousands of 20-somethings flying regional turboprops all over the world?
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Re: previous suggestion of over-riding inappropriate flight changes ... This does not really solve the problem of malevolent pilot in charge, it just keeps the airplane flying to the point of fuel exhaustion (MH 370 a possible example).
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the 1 thing that really does not sit well with me is that the FO was breathing normally and never said a word yet people were screaming in the cabin
knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness
this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation
knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness
this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation
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Safety Pilot
Do they have a system of safety pilot during line training to be in control should the pic or instructor be incapacitated for any reason or is out of the cockpit for physiological reasons?
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The ability of one pilot being able to commit suicide by taking out the whole plane, by locking out the other pilot has got to end.
My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.
Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.
My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.
Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.
Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 26th Mar 2015 at 17:22. Reason: add content
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The problem is that the old BA flight scheme of many decades back (or the RAF) had thousands of candidates to choose from. The modern school has one - the guy at the front desk with a chequebook. And the basic aptitude of that candidate, in terms of intelligence, cognitive ability and hand-eye coordination may be excellent, good, intermediate or dire. But he still ticks the box and gets the job, because he (or she) is cheap.
They have to follow the market, and the market now wants to fly cheap. How cheap? As cheap as possible. Fine, then I'll have to cut anywhere I can.
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armchairpilot: fingerprint is no better or worse than a door code. In any event, it would have no bearing on the present incident, in which the door was (allegedly) locked by the FO. Doesn't matter what you are using to secure the door - if it is manually overridden from the other side, there is nothing to be done.
Cgwhitemonk11, I have no doubt you have worked hard to get where you are - and I don't doubt I would rather have you in the RHS than a 200hr cadet, much as I would rather have a 40 year old military pilot with 1000s of hours in a dynamic jet than you. But considering this case that still doesn't make you or the mil fast jet guy less likely to drive an aircraft into the ground later in life. Setting aside radicalisation, mental health issues can occur at anytime in your life, triggered by any number of things, If this is the cause of this tragic incident your arguments are irrelevant and should be taken to another thread.
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Sick to hear EasyJet getting publicity on BBC Radio 4 just now saying from today they will bring in the two in the cockpit rule. Perhaps the presenter should give credit to airlines who already had this procedure in place and not those who want to profit today on others misfortune.
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@ DirtyProp - agreed, but costs are being driven down by the lowest common denominator LCCs , the question is are the regulators giving too much free reign which is putting too much financial strain on all carriers?
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Epilepsy
Absolutely agree with Andyjoy- i am worried about damning this man so quickly. Epilepsy might mimic this scenario. Simple partial seizures or dissociative states associated with psychiatric illness could potentially lead to this problem
Dissociative Seizures: a Challenge for Neurologists and Psychotherapists
Dissociative Seizures: a Challenge for Neurologists and Psychotherapists
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Cost reduction in low cost airlines comes at the expense of increased stress on pilots. A previous post mentions the Colgan crash - here is a section about that crash that I wrote in a case study about the Flybe heavy landing in Belfast in February 2014 by the one-armed pilot:
"The US National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation into the crash of a Colgan Air Dash 8 just outside of the airport at Buffalo, New York on Feb 12, 2009 revealed alarming facts about the lifestyles of pilots on low cost airlines in the United States. Both of the pilots routinely slept overnight on couches in the airline’s Newark Airport Crew Lounge. Neither pilot actually lived in New York – one lived in Seattle, the other in Florida, and both commuted to their Newark base by free air travel."
"Their long commutes (5 hours for the First Officer and 3 hours for the Captain) plus their uncomfortable sleeping arrangements were considered to have contributed to fatigue as an element of the crash. Internet pilot discussion groups attributed their bizarre no-frills lifestyles to their low pay, but noted that this was a common practice when such pilots could not afford hotels, and could not afford the housing costs of their home low-cost airline base. This lifestyle image was in stark contrast to the popular image of the glamorous lifestyles of flag and legacy pilots, accommodated in first-class hotels at layover destinations."
These facts are not directly related to the specific stresses on this Germanwings FO, but are sadly part of the general new psychological environment for low-cost airline pilots all over the world.
"The US National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation into the crash of a Colgan Air Dash 8 just outside of the airport at Buffalo, New York on Feb 12, 2009 revealed alarming facts about the lifestyles of pilots on low cost airlines in the United States. Both of the pilots routinely slept overnight on couches in the airline’s Newark Airport Crew Lounge. Neither pilot actually lived in New York – one lived in Seattle, the other in Florida, and both commuted to their Newark base by free air travel."
"Their long commutes (5 hours for the First Officer and 3 hours for the Captain) plus their uncomfortable sleeping arrangements were considered to have contributed to fatigue as an element of the crash. Internet pilot discussion groups attributed their bizarre no-frills lifestyles to their low pay, but noted that this was a common practice when such pilots could not afford hotels, and could not afford the housing costs of their home low-cost airline base. This lifestyle image was in stark contrast to the popular image of the glamorous lifestyles of flag and legacy pilots, accommodated in first-class hotels at layover destinations."
These facts are not directly related to the specific stresses on this Germanwings FO, but are sadly part of the general new psychological environment for low-cost airline pilots all over the world.
