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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 12th Oct 2015, 18:05
  #3321 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, this has been misunderstood.

The purpose of the 'baby sitter' in the cockpit while one pilot goes to the loo is purely to open the door and let that pilot back in to the cockpit.

The baby sitter is not expected to assimilate what the remaining pilot is doing to the flight path, nor are they expected to physically restrain or control that pilot by themselves.

They just open the door.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 19:29
  #3322 (permalink)  
 
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How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
Seeing the ground getting closer would have been a major concern for every non pilot - and not stupid - person !
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 19:57
  #3323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by armchairpilot94116
Let's look at how many times a locked door has prevented entry by terrorists and others bent on ill intent since we started having these break-proof doors, versus how many times a pilot has killed everyone by locking these same doors.

Maybe it is better to do away with these doors.
Given that we can never know how many terrorists may have been deterred by the presence of a locked door, the only sensible way to quantify this would be to total up all historical incidents and "pro-rata" the result based on hours flown since the introduction of locked doors vs hours flown before.

I've no idea what number you would end up with but I suspect it would spoil your point...
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 20:39
  #3324 (permalink)  
 
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It's been said before, but I'll say it again. TWO PEOPLE ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES.
Absolutely agree. Lubitz most probably wouldn't have done this if he would not have been alone. He waited until he was fully in charge and had no chance of "failure".

The question is what is a smart way of always having two people in the safe perimeter of the cockpit? To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.

I would argue the two pilots have to be the two people who always stay upfront. We need to redesign the forward space so the pilot does not have to leave the safe perimeter to go to the loo.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 20:59
  #3325 (permalink)  
 
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Really?
Its got nothing to do with the door or the toilet.
Red flags started showing during his flight training and they were ignored.

To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.
Name one...just one.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 21:05
  #3326 (permalink)  

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I have to agree with 1201alarm. At least on the 737, it would have made more sense to position the door aft of the forward toilet. It wouldn't have been too difficult to connect a hot water boiler for tea/coffee at the same time. Have a hatch to allow crew meals to be served, and the area becomes self-contained and secure. But at the same time, I'm also puzzled about the problems raised by having cabin crew in the flight deck when the pilot is out. It was SOP with both the companies I worked for post 9/11.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 22:32
  #3327 (permalink)  
 
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B2N2 it is obvious 911 refers. 1 pilot + 1 cabin crew Hijacker. Mmm.
Not a well thought out solution IMHO
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 06:49
  #3328 (permalink)  
 
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Greasy Monkey

The autopilot system having the ultimate control over the door lock - whenever pre-set deviation limits for the flight controls are exceeded, the door is unlocked....
These deviation limits should be set according to the flight plan/route (automated calculation of % deviation, or similar), and if they are to be over-ridden, require two valid pass-codes from the assigned crew.
Great ...so how would that work if one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and the other pilot decides to initiate an diversion to an en-route airport? He/she might be OK with the door becoming unlocked, but he/she and perhaps the Feds might not be...How would it work if you had to engage in serious weather avoidance - in addition to doing the weather avoidance, liase with ATC/cabin crew, etc, you've now got to enter (repeatedly?) codes? A "simpler solution" it is not....

1201

To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.
Agreed. If not done properly and with great care it certainly has the potential to create serious problems, and no, I'm not going to spell them out here.

Last edited by wiggy; 13th Oct 2015 at 07:01.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 07:20
  #3329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gcal View Post
I do not understand how simply having two people there would have helped in this case.
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
What could they have done once the realisation had settled in?
A second person in the case of incapacitation so they could call for help yes; but not in this case.
Firstly brother, having a second person on the flight deck, they would have noticed the captain banging on the door and even seen him on the CCTV panel.

Secondly brother, the first officer (the scumbag coward that he really was and his parents must be so proud of him) would never have dared such a move with a second body in the flight deck.

All pilot suicide accidents have occurred when one pilot has been in the flight deck, except for Egypt Air (and some claim Air France 447 as well but no comment from me).
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 07:28
  #3330 (permalink)  
 
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To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.
Name one...just one.
1/ The 1 pilot + 1 cabin crew hijacker scenario ( unless you want to start vetting cabin crew in the same manner as we do pilots......cabin crew don't even do one on one interviews in some airlines, they do mass interviews......hardly the same standard)
2/ Distraction. How many pilots have been distracted by conversation with the cabin crew and missed position reports or a looming CB while they are organising their post flight drinks session? I'd suggest quite a few, I know that both myself and my Captain missed top of descent once when we had a particularly attractive young lady up front with us. When I go to the loo and I have a good looking twenty something male First Officer who is green on type, I know I return as quickly as possible if the cabin crew member who goes in is a young and attractive female. Distraction.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 13:22
  #3331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer View Post
1/ The 1 pilot + 1 cabin crew hijacker scenario ( unless you want to start vetting cabin crew in the same manner as we do pilots......cabin crew don't even do one on one interviews in some airlines, they do mass interviews......hardly the same standard)
We may as well stop all modes of transport because this scenario could occur anywhere, be it trains, subway, ISS... plus the chance of two airline employees organizing a hijacking together is a very remote possibility. Yes the possibility still exists but for that argument, we may as well ban knives, forks and any sharp objects to protect our children.



Originally Posted by framer View Post
2/ Distraction. How many pilots have been distracted by conversation with the cabin crew and missed position reports or a looming CB while they are organising their post flight drinks session? I'd suggest quite a few, I know that both myself and my Captain missed top of descent once when we had a particularly attractive young lady up front with us. When I go to the loo and I have a good looking twenty something male First Officer who is green on type, I know I return as quickly as possible if the cabin crew member who goes in is a young and attractive female. Distraction.
I am sorry but if something like that distracts you, then you have demonstrated a lack of airmanship and have jeopordized the safety of every soul on board. God forbid anyone who is that easily disoriented and distracted takes off from a coastal airport towards the sea/ocean in the middle of the night without any visual cues!
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 11:48
  #3332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by THR RED ACC View Post
...
I am sorry but if something like that distracts you, then you have demonstrated a lack of airmanship and have jeopordized the safety of every soul on board. God forbid anyone who is that easily disoriented and distracted takes off from a coastal airport towards the sea/ocean in the middle of the night without any visual cues!
I have to agree. If I knew which airline you fly/flew for I would avoid it.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 12:36
  #3333 (permalink)  
 
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THR RED ACC, brother!!

What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!

Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?

Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 14:07
  #3334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyburg View Post
THR RED ACC, brother!!

What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!

Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?

Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
In that incident, the reporting says it was crystal clear to everyone which crew member was bonkers and which one was not. In real life, a flight crew member would need to have a very compelling case to lock the second pilot out and I can not imagine a flight attendent not being able to work out which of the crew had lost the plot in this situation.

I find it quite concerning that European pilots are both so afraid of their cabin crew (i.e. they are a real risk of incapaciting the pilot and taking over the aircraft while watching the door) and so easily distracted by cabin crew's looks and charm that they can't concentrate on flying. The US carriers all seem to employee pilots who are able to concentrate enough to fly while cabin crew man the door for their copilot to answer the call of nature.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 15:10
  #3335 (permalink)  
 
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Wow,

I don't know how to begin to even answer that!

I merely stated that there are different scenarios!

Your statement regarding European pilots being distracted by CA's to the point the can't concentrate on flying. I remember a U.S. Crew so distracted by their laptops that they over flew their destinations by what? A hundred miles or so? Wasn't it a CA that alerted them to the fact that they should have landed by now?

Don't make this a U.S. versus European pilots! Totally uncalled for!

It is not about being afraid of a CA. It is just about is it really a solution!
What is the CA going to do when the remaining pilot rolls the aircraft upside down?
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 15:12
  #3336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 1201alarm View Post
Absol I would argue the two pilots have to be the two people who always stay upfront. We need to redesign the forward space so the pilot does not have to leave the safe perimeter to go to the loo.
Be careful what you wish for. Management may wish to make you use piddle packs. Cheaper for them ...

@TheRedACC
All pilot suicide accidents have occurred when one pilot has been in the flight
deck, except for Egypt Air (and some claim Air France 447 as well but no comment
from me).
No evidence supports that claim.
@Flyburg
What is the CA going to do when the remaining pilot rolls the aircraft upside
down?
If he doesn't pull any back stick, hit the ceiling/overhead.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 18:14
  #3337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyburg View Post
Wow,

Don't make this a U.S. versus European pilots! Totally uncalled for!
The reason I made the contrast was that the CC in the cockpit answer is the standard in the US and doesn't appear to have suffered from any of the issues raised in this thread. It was not a comment on the relative skills of US and European pilots (Although I was poking fun at the concept that any pilot anywhere in the developed world would be distracted from flight critical activity by CC manning the door)

I am genuinely surprised by the number of posters who have raised the possibility that CC can be so readily infiltrated by terrorists that being alone in the cockpit for a short time with a CC member could present a credible risk of terrorist action ... yet having that same person with an airside pass and free to move about the aircraft in flight is OK.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 19:46
  #3338 (permalink)  
 
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The US carriers all seem to employee pilots who are able to concentrate enough to fly while cabin crew man the door for their copilot to answer the call of nature.

But not when using laptops QED (missed destination remember)
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 20:45
  #3339 (permalink)  
 
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In many (several) of these believed pilot suicide instances, the perpetrating pilot appears to have taken some effort to mask what went on from investigators. This has taken the form of pulling CVR circuitbreakers, shutting down all comms systems, heading for the deepest Indian Ocean, etc.

This suggests that any action that ensures that the perpetrating pilot will be revealed beyond all doubt is likely to dissuade this pilot from making the attempt. Thus, a FA in the cockpit, while perhaps not trained to counteract a rogue pilot's rollover effort, is still likely to yell/scream what is going on, etc. By having all of this captured on the CVR, rather than silence, ensures that the perpetrating pilot and his/her family will not be able to evade condemnation/embarassment, etc. I suggest that this knowledge is likely to dissuade such dingbats from this form of suicide attempt.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 21:36
  #3340 (permalink)  
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You suggest that pilot-suicides take measures to avoid proof, yet those gun-assassin-suicides seem to go out of their way to publicise their intentions - witness the recent case where the investigator said that he refused to mention the name of the assassin (to deny them the oxygen of publicity).
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