Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Greasy Monkey
Great 
...so how would that work if one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and the other pilot decides to initiate an diversion to an en-route airport? He/she might be OK with the door becoming unlocked, but he/she and perhaps the Feds might not be...How would it work if you had to engage in serious weather avoidance - in addition to doing the weather avoidance, liase with ATC/cabin crew, etc, you've now got to enter (repeatedly?) codes? A "simpler solution" it is not....
1201
Agreed. If not done properly and with great care it certainly has the potential to create serious problems, and no, I'm not going to spell them out here.
The autopilot system having the ultimate control over the door lock - whenever pre-set deviation limits for the flight controls are exceeded, the door is unlocked....
These deviation limits should be set according to the flight plan/route (automated calculation of % deviation, or similar), and if they are to be over-ridden, require two valid pass-codes from the assigned crew.
These deviation limits should be set according to the flight plan/route (automated calculation of % deviation, or similar), and if they are to be over-ridden, require two valid pass-codes from the assigned crew.
...so how would that work if one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and the other pilot decides to initiate an diversion to an en-route airport? He/she might be OK with the door becoming unlocked, but he/she and perhaps the Feds might not be...How would it work if you had to engage in serious weather avoidance - in addition to doing the weather avoidance, liase with ATC/cabin crew, etc, you've now got to enter (repeatedly?) codes? A "simpler solution" it is not....1201
To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.
Last edited by wiggy; 13th Oct 2015 at 06:01.
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I do not understand how simply having two people there would have helped in this case.
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
What could they have done once the realisation had settled in?
A second person in the case of incapacitation so they could call for help yes; but not in this case.
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
What could they have done once the realisation had settled in?
A second person in the case of incapacitation so they could call for help yes; but not in this case.
Secondly brother, the first officer (the scumbag coward that he really was and his parents must be so proud of him) would never have dared such a move with a second body in the flight deck.
All pilot suicide accidents have occurred when one pilot has been in the flight deck, except for Egypt Air (and some claim Air France 447 as well but no comment from me).
To bring a flight attendant upfront creates many other issues.
Name one...just one.
Name one...just one.
2/ Distraction. How many pilots have been distracted by conversation with the cabin crew and missed position reports or a looming CB while they are organising their post flight drinks session? I'd suggest quite a few, I know that both myself and my Captain missed top of descent once when we had a particularly attractive young lady up front with us. When I go to the loo and I have a good looking twenty something male First Officer who is green on type, I know I return as quickly as possible if the cabin crew member who goes in is a young and attractive female. Distraction.
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2/ Distraction. How many pilots have been distracted by conversation with the cabin crew and missed position reports or a looming CB while they are organising their post flight drinks session? I'd suggest quite a few, I know that both myself and my Captain missed top of descent once when we had a particularly attractive young lady up front with us. When I go to the loo and I have a good looking twenty something male First Officer who is green on type, I know I return as quickly as possible if the cabin crew member who goes in is a young and attractive female. Distraction.
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...
I am sorry but if something like that distracts you, then you have demonstrated a lack of airmanship and have jeopordized the safety of every soul on board. God forbid anyone who is that easily disoriented and distracted takes off from a coastal airport towards the sea/ocean in the middle of the night without any visual cues!
I am sorry but if something like that distracts you, then you have demonstrated a lack of airmanship and have jeopordized the safety of every soul on board. God forbid anyone who is that easily disoriented and distracted takes off from a coastal airport towards the sea/ocean in the middle of the night without any visual cues!
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THR RED ACC, brother!!
What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!
Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?
Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!
Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?
Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
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THR RED ACC, brother!!
What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!
Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?
Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
What if the captain bangs on the door to let him in but the copilot claims he's having psychotic episode!! What to do?? Legally she's obliged to open the door!
Think that's far fetched? I remember a incident on a jet blue flight where the captain developed such an episode!! Granted, the second person on the flight deck happened to be an off duty pilot, but what if there was not an off duty pilot onboard?
Wow, what choice would. A CA face, the copilot which a strange look on his face claiming the captain is crazy or the copilot is crazy. Just saying!!
I find it quite concerning that European pilots are both so afraid of their cabin crew (i.e. they are a real risk of incapaciting the pilot and taking over the aircraft while watching the door) and so easily distracted by cabin crew's looks and charm that they can't concentrate on flying. The US carriers all seem to employee pilots who are able to concentrate enough to fly while cabin crew man the door for their copilot to answer the call of nature.
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Wow,
I don't know how to begin to even answer that!
I merely stated that there are different scenarios!
Your statement regarding European pilots being distracted by CA's to the point the can't concentrate on flying. I remember a U.S. Crew so distracted by their laptops that they over flew their destinations by what? A hundred miles or so? Wasn't it a CA that alerted them to the fact that they should have landed by now?
Don't make this a U.S. versus European pilots! Totally uncalled for!
It is not about being afraid of a CA. It is just about is it really a solution!
What is the CA going to do when the remaining pilot rolls the aircraft upside down?
I don't know how to begin to even answer that!
I merely stated that there are different scenarios!
Your statement regarding European pilots being distracted by CA's to the point the can't concentrate on flying. I remember a U.S. Crew so distracted by their laptops that they over flew their destinations by what? A hundred miles or so? Wasn't it a CA that alerted them to the fact that they should have landed by now?
Don't make this a U.S. versus European pilots! Totally uncalled for!
It is not about being afraid of a CA. It is just about is it really a solution!
What is the CA going to do when the remaining pilot rolls the aircraft upside down?
Cheaper for them ...@TheRedACC
All pilot suicide accidents have occurred when one pilot has been in the flight
deck, except for Egypt Air (and some claim Air France 447 as well but no comment
from me).
deck, except for Egypt Air (and some claim Air France 447 as well but no comment
from me).
@Flyburg
What is the CA going to do when the remaining pilot rolls the aircraft upside
down?
down?
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I am genuinely surprised by the number of posters who have raised the possibility that CC can be so readily infiltrated by terrorists that being alone in the cockpit for a short time with a CC member could present a credible risk of terrorist action ... yet having that same person with an airside pass and free to move about the aircraft in flight is OK.
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The US carriers all seem to employee pilots who are able to concentrate enough to fly while cabin crew man the door for their copilot to answer the call of nature.
But not when using laptops QED (missed destination remember)
But not when using laptops QED (missed destination remember)
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In many (several) of these believed pilot suicide instances, the perpetrating pilot appears to have taken some effort to mask what went on from investigators. This has taken the form of pulling CVR circuitbreakers, shutting down all comms systems, heading for the deepest Indian Ocean, etc.
This suggests that any action that ensures that the perpetrating pilot will be revealed beyond all doubt is likely to dissuade this pilot from making the attempt. Thus, a FA in the cockpit, while perhaps not trained to counteract a rogue pilot's rollover effort, is still likely to yell/scream what is going on, etc. By having all of this captured on the CVR, rather than silence, ensures that the perpetrating pilot and his/her family will not be able to evade condemnation/embarassment, etc. I suggest that this knowledge is likely to dissuade such dingbats from this form of suicide attempt.
This suggests that any action that ensures that the perpetrating pilot will be revealed beyond all doubt is likely to dissuade this pilot from making the attempt. Thus, a FA in the cockpit, while perhaps not trained to counteract a rogue pilot's rollover effort, is still likely to yell/scream what is going on, etc. By having all of this captured on the CVR, rather than silence, ensures that the perpetrating pilot and his/her family will not be able to evade condemnation/embarassment, etc. I suggest that this knowledge is likely to dissuade such dingbats from this form of suicide attempt.
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You suggest that pilot-suicides take measures to avoid proof, yet those gun-assassin-suicides seem to go out of their way to publicise their intentions - witness the recent case where the investigator said that he refused to mention the name of the assassin (to deny them the oxygen of publicity).
What would happen if the plane had a mode - selectable by ATC or from a switch in each pilot's pocket or the purser's - that made it disable everything in the cockpit and fly itself to the nearest suitable airport with autoland?
It would be fine if you were sure the plane was otherwise doomed. The very existence of such a device would stop suicide attempts, and also the case where a plane took off from Cyprus and crashed for lack of pressurisation.
But I think it would be unsellable to pilots and passengers alike.
It would be fine if you were sure the plane was otherwise doomed. The very existence of such a device would stop suicide attempts, and also the case where a plane took off from Cyprus and crashed for lack of pressurisation.
But I think it would be unsellable to pilots and passengers alike.
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Attack vector
Your suggestion with an autoland feature is a very good attack target for anybody intending to down a plane.
Crack the system, and you won. No-one will be able to stop it from happening, by design. And it even can possibly be done anonymously, from remote!
You think, autoland will stop a harmful end? No, just irritate the computer by erroneous sensor input, or even data that will cause the autopilot to crash the plane.
Adding more complexity adds more attack surfaces.
If you look at the reports about the 'safety' of the data buses in planes, it is a miracle to me nothing happened yet in that direction. Up to now, an attacker must still be physically on the plane. Offer external system overrides and it will be mis-used sooner or later.
Crack the system, and you won. No-one will be able to stop it from happening, by design. And it even can possibly be done anonymously, from remote!
You think, autoland will stop a harmful end? No, just irritate the computer by erroneous sensor input, or even data that will cause the autopilot to crash the plane.
Adding more complexity adds more attack surfaces.
If you look at the reports about the 'safety' of the data buses in planes, it is a miracle to me nothing happened yet in that direction. Up to now, an attacker must still be physically on the plane. Offer external system overrides and it will be mis-used sooner or later.
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In fact, the idea of a function "Autoland" ìs not that bad. What can go wrong? Autoland is a routine in a bad weather:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCDolQ0e2I
In case the computer receives erroneous data, simple autopilot disconnects and autoland function is disabled.
But when the plane's systems, FAC and FBW are 100% operational and the flight crew do not respond and the trajectory is dubious, then "Autoland" might save the day. ATC could initiate it or by one of the pilots and one of the cabin crew from outside of the cockpit, by entering a known code.
To be clear, only command Autoland is send, then autopilot does its job independently and undisturbed. It's better to command Autoland instead to scramble fighterjets to take down the rogue airplane.
On the other hand, after a bad landing the pilot can say: "We apologize for this autoland, time to time we have to test this function"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCDolQ0e2I
In case the computer receives erroneous data, simple autopilot disconnects and autoland function is disabled.
But when the plane's systems, FAC and FBW are 100% operational and the flight crew do not respond and the trajectory is dubious, then "Autoland" might save the day. ATC could initiate it or by one of the pilots and one of the cabin crew from outside of the cockpit, by entering a known code.
To be clear, only command Autoland is send, then autopilot does its job independently and undisturbed. It's better to command Autoland instead to scramble fighterjets to take down the rogue airplane.
On the other hand, after a bad landing the pilot can say: "We apologize for this autoland, time to time we have to test this function"
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I am genuinely surprised by the number of posters who have raised the possibility that CC can be so readily infiltrated by terrorists that being alone in the cockpit for a short time with a CC member could present a credible risk of terrorist action ... yet having that same person with an airside pass and free to move about the aircraft in flight is OK.
The reason I made the contrast was that the CC in the cockpit answer is the standard in the US and doesn't appear to have suffered from any of the issues raised in this thread.
The whole thing is a farce to be honest, the result is that pilots do drink a lot less during a work day and dehydrate to prevent interrupting the passenger service and get some disgruntled CC and another one blocking the galley. If they have to do it anyway the remaining pilot has to cope with that disgruntled untrained person on the flight deck and still operate the door/video system anyway. It is simply a measure to placate the travelling public, not a real security measure.
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EU launches "Action Plan".....
Today the EU launched an "Action Plan"
20/10/2015 - Transport
"EASA intends to use both existing rules and innovative regulatory solutions for the implementation of the recommendations. Concrete actions will be launched in the areas of air operations, aircrew, Information Technology (IT) and data protection. The next steps will be:
- An Aircrew Medical Fitness workshop to be organised in early December 2015. The workshop will gather European and world-wide experts to discuss the implementation of the recommendations. The results of this workshop will be a draft proposal of concrete actions to implement the recommendations, to be further discussed and approved among all the interested parties: European Commission, EASA, airlines, crews, doctors, etc.
- Operational Directives in the area of air operations and aircrew might be published by EASA in the first quarter of 2016 to address specific safety issues and prepare proposals for new rules. Operational Directives are a new regulatory tool which may be used for the first time on this occasion. They will provide operators and national aviation authorities with indications on how to pro-actively implement the recommendations, and what are the actions required.
- New rules such as new acceptable means of compliance (AMC) and guidance material (GM) to existing regulations will be developed as needed before the end of 2016."
The integral "Action Plan" can be found here:
http://easa.europa.eu/download/vario...plan_final.pdf
20/10/2015 - Transport
"EASA intends to use both existing rules and innovative regulatory solutions for the implementation of the recommendations. Concrete actions will be launched in the areas of air operations, aircrew, Information Technology (IT) and data protection. The next steps will be:
- An Aircrew Medical Fitness workshop to be organised in early December 2015. The workshop will gather European and world-wide experts to discuss the implementation of the recommendations. The results of this workshop will be a draft proposal of concrete actions to implement the recommendations, to be further discussed and approved among all the interested parties: European Commission, EASA, airlines, crews, doctors, etc.
- Operational Directives in the area of air operations and aircrew might be published by EASA in the first quarter of 2016 to address specific safety issues and prepare proposals for new rules. Operational Directives are a new regulatory tool which may be used for the first time on this occasion. They will provide operators and national aviation authorities with indications on how to pro-actively implement the recommendations, and what are the actions required.
- New rules such as new acceptable means of compliance (AMC) and guidance material (GM) to existing regulations will be developed as needed before the end of 2016."
The integral "Action Plan" can be found here:
http://easa.europa.eu/download/vario...plan_final.pdf
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EASA is organising a survey about the 2-person-cockpit recommendation it made after the Germanwings crash.
You can participate here:
https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2-person-cockpit
You can participate here:
https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2-person-cockpit