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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 13th Mar 2016, 21:05
  #3401 (permalink)  
 
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You've not read the report. German law does allow revealing medical data to protect others. The doctor however also did not cooperate with the BEA and no doubt is fearing a massive legal action.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:03
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Depression is a common enough illness, and can be generally managed well. Like any other illness it does depend on the patient wanting to get well, and cooperating, despite the understandable effect of mental illness. Lubitz still had responsibility for himself. He chose to disregard this. Now suicide tends to be a complex thing and many at the point of suicide tend to think logically but in ways which do not take into account any consequence after the act itself. Think of the many people who have chosen "death by cop" - Its planned and logical, however horrific the consequences.

However, it remains Lubitz own responsibility to state that he is not well and request that he is taken out of service for a while. It is not entirely the doctor's fault in failure to report, even if it were legal. Lubitz may well have been evasive in his responses to the doctors, who may have suspected things may be badly wrong but do not know or could not imagine what he would do.

I feel that the scenario with the healthcare professionals would be something like - Are you feeling suicidal? Yes. Have you any plans? No. Now what do you do about that? Even though the body language may be telling you that the patient is lying, what do you do?

Equally interesting is that Lubitz was prescribed antidepressants only 8 days before his suicide. For someone with a long term health condition that is quite recent. If it was the first time he was prescribed antidepressants (which I doubt) then it would certainly have been irresponsible to have gone to work. If it was a change of antidepressants, it would be interesting to know which one, as some of them in the first few days can amplify suicidal feelings. In any case, 8 days after taking an antidepressant, it would have been unwise to fly an aircraft and I am sure that the prescriber would have said so.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:14
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I can assure you that for someone suffering some sort of mental illness, the fact that your DR will be able to report you to your employer will just mean people won't seek help.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:15
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In his state of mind he could have thought he was doing everyone a favour, giving them the gift of avoiding their eventual end. No death from cancer, no grief from a child's death and so on.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:22
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Yeah because that would have completely nullified the sounds of the screams in the cabin and the frantic shouting and hammering of the captain on the flightdeck door. Don't make excuses for him, anyone who is able to ignore that and carry out such an act is a psychopath. He may have had depression but a clear lack of empathy and remorse makes him a psychopath and so does carrying out mass murder. Depressed people don't tend to take 150 innocent people with them.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:31
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after reading the final report we can say the captain requested the cockpit entry via the normal access code one time , after that he tried the intercom 4 times but he has never tried the emergency access code.

of course it could be denied from the cockpit so the outcome would be the same , but its a fact he never tried it.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 23:03
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It's not a case of making excuses. It happened. It has to be understood.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 03:32
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You've not read the report. German law does allow revealing medical data to protect others.
Yes, it does. But only if it is very obvious that lifes are in danger. And even then an MD is open to a criminal case against him, the patient can sue him for any damages he has a result, which is millions in the case of a young pilot (the rest of his lifes income in that job) and of course he might lose his medical license as a result. The limits to report a patient are very high indeed. As mentioned above, a direct result of things that happened in nazi germany. Since nobody is required to truthfully state his occupation at his MD, privacy laws would have to be changed for everyone, and that is not going to happen in germany.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 07:49
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So they got no video/imaging out of any of the passengers mobile phones on board.
or perhaps they did and though it wiser to say nowt?
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:16
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Videos and photos from the cabin would have added little but feed the lowest common denominator of public voyeurism.

On privacy in Germany if you do read the report you see:

"On the one hand, German regulations contain specific provisions to punish doctors violating medical confidentiality, including occupational consequences and imprisonment up to one year.

On the other hand, the German criminal code has very general provisions stating that any person who acts to avert an imminent danger does not act unlawfully, if the act committed is an adequate means to avert the danger and if the protected interest substantially outweighs the one interfered with."


There is a good summary of the report here: https://twitter.com/Aerossurance/sta...90567780405248
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:17
  #3411 (permalink)  


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(Warning - "Politics")

Since nobody is required to truthfully state his occupation at his MD, privacy laws would have to be changed for everyone, and that is not going to happen in germany.
How is it that Germany can have these "special laws", even if they are in conflict with the rules in the rest of the EU? As I understand it, UK is obliged under the EU agreement to implement all of the laws passed by EU, without any conditions.

(not trying to be "political" here, but this is one of the "bugs" of EU membership that the anti-EU campaign is regularly throwing up)
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:30
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there are NO EU wide laws on crimes - only things liek th eEuropean Arrest Warrent - which isn't actually just restricted tot the EU

Most of the things that get the OUT campaign exercised are to do with commercial issues

the European Court of Human Rights (founded by the UK) isn't an EU body at all
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:34
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I think the BEA have got this one right - airlines (and other companies) have to give people suffering from mental health issues some sort of support - take the guy off flying but continue to employ them AND allow them to return to flying once they are well again

I've known a few people with mental health problems and TBH for most of them it's been a temporary issue that they have got through

If we demonise it and throw them in thw street who the hell is going to go and seek help or turn themselves in??
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 10:22
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As I understand it, UK is obliged under the EU agreement to implement all of the laws passed by EU, without any conditions.
ExSimGuy

Not always true ( not making political point either , just trying to clarify this particular issue)
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 12:10
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Whilst not wishing to sidetrack this debate, nor use it as a platform for criticism of "atypical employment", surely this is the opportunity EASA & the European Govts should use to put an end to zero hour contracts/bogus self employment etc.

The probability of someone , already depressive, self reporting a mental health issue , has got to be very low, if he understands that his income will thereafter be zero until he resumes flying duties again.

Turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas, and the elephant in the room that EASA et al will probably ignore is that the issue here is trying to make it less punitive for someone to seek help . . . . simples, give them the possibility to continue with their income protected (or at least a high percentage of it ) until the issue is resolved one way or another.

Inbetween zero-hour contracts & the brave new world of companies offering no (or inadequate ) loss of licence coverage, I don't see how we can realistically expect to increase self reporting.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 15:05
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
I can assure you that for someone suffering some sort of mental illness, the fact that your DR will be able to report you to your employer will just mean people won't seek help.
Yep. Maybe that's the objective: cost cutting of a different sort.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 16:10
  #3417 (permalink)  
 
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ExSimGuy,

The problem is that the Brexit advocates never specify the difference between an EU Directive and an EU Regulation. There are relatively few Regulations. And, as Heathrow Harry has pointed out, the European Court of Human Rights is not an EU body at all. I do wish the popular press would be a lot more factual about EU processes.

A Directive is a legal act of the European Union, which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result.

A Regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 17:27
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Originally Posted by RexBanner
Yeah because that would have completely nullified the sounds of the screams in the cabin and the frantic shouting and hammering of the captain on the flightdeck door. Don't make excuses for him, anyone who is able to ignore that and carry out such an act is a psychopath. He may have had depression but a clear lack of empathy and remorse makes him a psychopath and so does carrying out mass murder. Depressed people don't tend to take 150 innocent people with them.
The term psychopath has a specific meaning and Lubitz doesnt fit it. A sociopath generally is not a criminal. Many successful businessmen are sociopathic. They have no qualms about ruining lives in a different way.

Not making excuses, but as I have dealt with many suicidal people I just want to introduce into the discussion how distorted the thinking can be. It may have been in his mind that "My life is not worth living, so what makes the life of anyone on board worth living?" Another scenario is that he was just comfortable in his little office at the front of the aircraft and took the aircraft into the mountains perceiving nothing but what was going on in his mind.

Depression has a very large spectrum, possibly one of the biggest catch-all diagnoses. It can range from simple reactive depression where the sleep is disturbed to suicidal and what would be called murderous intentions. Sometimes it depends on your job or what you are familiar with. If its firearms you may go on a killing spree. Depressives dont generally kill 150 but have certainly been known to kill as many as they thought or had the physical capability to do so. Women with post-natal depression sometimes kill their own children. They are not psychopaths but ill.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 19:40
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When do the supposed/perceived rights of the individual over-ride the established rights of the many? Does not a doctor, as well as having a 'duty of care' to his patient, also have 'duty of care' to society in general. The medical oath is to save life. Do the laws of privacy over-ride one's scariness about a patient's future actions?
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 20:13
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
When do the supposed/perceived rights of the individual over-ride the established rights of the many? Does not a doctor, as well as having a 'duty of care' to his patient, also have 'duty of care' to society in general. The medical oath is to save life. Do the laws of privacy over-ride one's scariness about a patient's future actions?
Please don't ask doctors to play God. The ones who play it that way are enough of a nuisance already.


As for the rest (most doctors) you are asking them to be able to predict with a level of accuracy that the mind and emotional sciences simply can't handle.. Were it that good, suicide would have been cured long, long ago.


If the doctor to patient relationship isn't confidential, the patients will be less likely to share things with a doctor. That's good for nobody, neither the patient nor the public.
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