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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 2nd Apr 2015, 15:52
  #2941 (permalink)  
 
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despegue:
you want facts?

Here is one: IT IS BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE to hear breathing on a CVR unless oxygen masks are worn! Any mention aboutnhearing breating on the cvr is pure fantasy unless mr. Lubitz was wearing his mask. ( and if he was wearing it, why?!)
On modern CVRs, pilot headset microphones are HOT microphones -- they are always on (whether the PTT button is pressed or not) and are always recorded on the CVR.

Breathing can be heard on these hot channels.

On these CVRs, four channels are assigned:

Channel 1: Captain HOT microphone
Channel 2: FO HOT microphone
Channel 3. Cockpit Area Microphone (CAM)
Channel 4: Public Address

Per regulations, large turbine aircraft installed after October 1991 must use hot microphones. CVRs on older aircraft must be retrofitted to comply with the new requirements by April, 2012.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 15:55
  #2942 (permalink)  
 
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" What I am awaiting is the realisation that the basis for this Co-Pilot being on the aircraft was the regulator, not the airline Eventually LH will get bored of being blamed, and state who is responsible for, and issued a certificate for, his medical "fitness".


Who did employ him in the first place after a burn out during initial training ? Abinitio pilot training isn't exactly Navy Seal training and to experience a severe depressive syndrom during that time at age 22/24 isn't very promising for the future. The guy should have been sent packing. Lufthansa isn't a charity, nor is any major airline.
So, maybe the German authorities gave him a medical, but LH decided to employ him and I am sorry......but I see grounds for loss of trust, medical or not.
This job is demanding enough as it is with life throwing its load of divorces, messed up kids and God kows what....to allow someone with a mental problem at such a young age to be employed by an airline.


Everyone seems to forget that the threat is outside the cockpit, not inside for crying out loud !!
What good does it make to have a cabin crew who only gets assed every couple of years, with a big chunk of that demographic toeing he sanity line, be alone with the remaining pilot, the very one everybody wants to have his crack examined at every angle ??
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:15
  #2943 (permalink)  
 
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We still don't know much.

Denial -> you are still here
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
Alternatively, some of us are at, "We don't have any real facts yet; we don't even know if the leaked CVR transcripts are real or not."

Most of us have analyzed all data released
Bear in mind that newspaper accounts of leaked CVR transcripts, reports of cell phone flash cards with audio recordings having been found, etc. are not necessarily valid.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:17
  #2944 (permalink)  
 
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All this talk of psychological testing and number of possible victims had me thinking. I had a co-worker who literally had his finger on the button. He was a member of a Missile Combat Crew in the 70s. I figured someone with the power to kill millions would have to have a bunch of psychological testing. Granted, he could not physically do it alone but with the right personality the other crew member might be convinced. I put the question to him. He said he does not recall any such testing. He needed a top secret clearance and some kind of nuclear rating. But no psychological testing.

So, which pays off more? Testing or 2 person crews? Or a mix?
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:22
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Who did employ him in the first place after a burn out during initial training ? Abinitio pilot training isn't exactly Navy Seal training and to experience a severe depressive syndrom during that time at age 22/24 isn't very promising for the future. The guy should have been sent packing. Lufthansa isn't a charity, nor is any major airline.
So, maybe the German authorities gave him a medical, but LH decided to employ him and I am sorry......but I see grounds for loss of trust, medical or not.
This job is demanding enough as it is with life throwing its load of divorces, messed up kids and God kows what....to allow someone with a mental problem at such a young age to be employed by an airline.
As an employment prospect, I might agree.

With regards to safety & medically I do not - you are either fit, or unfit, and that is determined by whether or not you hold a medical. I know of many colleagues in my airline who have had "events" in their past - personal, medical, mental, physical - some prior joining, some after. I am sure all airlines are the same - pilots are human after all
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:28
  #2946 (permalink)  
 
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The people picking up the pieces

The aircraft smashed into the mountain at 435mph, exploding instantly and scattering aircraft and human debris over at least two hectares of precipitous rock.

Since Wednesday, the day after flight 4U9525 crashed into the southern Alps, aerial pictures have shown gendarmes picking through what looked like small pieces of litter.

The French described the painstaking task as the “travail de fourmi”, literally the work of an ant, suggesting patience and perseverance.

It was difficult to use ordinary words to describe their grim findings, words that would not cause further distress to already grief-stricken families.

Touron admitted that even for those used to dealing with death, the search had been emotionally charged. “When you have a body to examine, you know what you’re dealing with, but you become technical and get on with it. But the effect is cumulative and exhausting,” he said.

“We’ve had some people join us who are not used to working with body parts and it’s been difficult for them. We have a team of psychologists on hand, and we also make sure we all eat together and speak about what has shocked us.”
Germanwings crash: ?the overriding feeling is one of injustice,? says officer with grim task of retrieving the dead | World news | The Guardian

Thank you Colonel Touron and all those with you.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:35
  #2947 (permalink)  
 
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As an employment prospect, I might agree.

With regards to safety & medically I do not - you are either fit, or unfit, and that is determined by whether or not you hold a medical. I know of many colleagues in my airline who have had "events" in their past - personal, medical, mental, physical - some prior joining, some after. I am sure all airlines are the same - pilots are human after all
Nigel I agree 100% with you but would further add that we do not know if what has been published so far if correct answers the question of what exact mental condition leads to someone planning a suicide but also planning to leave their name in history by carrying out an awful murder of 150 people?

By all means identify that specific mental illness and if you can identify people with the trait to wipe out a school yard of kids with a gun or down an aircraft with 150 innocent people on board then do so as they have no place in aviation.

But not a Witch hunt on responsible caring people who have gone through a life event! We still do not have a diagnosis as to what was wrong with this guy that he can do such an evil act only a broad brush ?

Touron added: “The overriding feeling among the teams is of injustice; that these people who didn’t deserve to die were killed intentionally seems so unjust. We cannot do anything for them, so we are making a very big effort for their families.”

Last edited by Pace; 2nd Apr 2015 at 17:07.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:40
  #2948 (permalink)  
 
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This job is demanding enough as it is with life throwing its load of divorces, messed up kids and God kows what....to allow someone with a mental problem at such a young age to be employed by an airline.
Not to mention bankruptcies, contracts, stagnation, base closures, lost pensions, strikes, crappy schedules, circadian disruption, crappy hotels, reserve, on and on...
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 17:09
  #2949 (permalink)  
 
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flight engineer is more than systems operator

In 39. Years as a flight engineer before ,CRM numerous times found myself being the third man out that provided necessary insight to defuse a hostel situation between Capt & Fo
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 17:24
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Body parts from all passengers found

The Assoc. Press is reporting today that body parts from all 150 passengers & crew have been found

Plane crash co-pilot eyed suicide methods, cockpit security | Miami Herald Miami Herald
PARIS French investigators have identified body parts from all 150 people aboard the Germanwings flight that crashed more than a week ago, a prosecutor said Thursday.
Investigators have found and studied 2,854 body parts, Marseille Prosecutor Brice Robin said.
But he said it will still take a long time for investigators to match the body parts with DNA samples from families of the victims.

I hope there will be enough tissue from the remains of the co-pilot to do a thorough toxocology analysis to determine what meds he may have been taking.

Also of interest, the same article notes that 40 cell phones have been found - most "very very damaged." I can only pray that incredible care will be exercised with these and that there will not be further (?) release of the passengers' videos to the media. I can't imagine what the families must be facing and feeling given what has already been released (assuming the video purportedly viewed by Paris Match & Bild is real.)
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:01
  #2951 (permalink)  
 
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IT IS BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE to hear breathing on a CVR unless oxygen masks are worn! Any mention aboutnhearing breating on the cvr is pure fantasy
I would like to know how many CVRs this poster, and others making similar claims, have actually analysed?

With the tools available to investigators, an enormous amount of information can be gleaned from a CVR audio recording alone.

Standing by for the continuation of the deniers after FDR is analysed... my guess is it will reveal little, if any, new information...
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:01
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Answer. If one pilot only is left in cockpit he/she required to put on oxygen mask!
That is true in the FAA world (at or above FL250), but not necessarily true in Europe / other parts of the world.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:10
  #2953 (permalink)  
 
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Not really

The cockpit needs to be kept safe, end of story.
Not really 'end of story' at all.

  1. Bad guys need to be kept out of the cockpit, no matter what.
  2. Good guys need to be able to get (back) into the cockpit, no matter what.
Both good and valid principles. But they can't both be true at the same time.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:43
  #2954 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Leightman

Ian I thoroughly agree that seeds of public mistrust have been planted, which is why I mentioned the 'mercurial potential of public
I warrant that a huge proportion of the travelling public have no awareness of the other suicide events, have probably forgotten MH370 or the shoot down. In a few weeks pragmatism will set in and this too will sink on to oblivion.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:52
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We know that there's only a 5% success rate for candidates at initial application stage.
Do we have metrics for cuts once traing has started and does LFT management have such metrics anchored in the agreed targets for their performance-based bonuses, possibly triggering our old friend, the Law of Unintended Consequences?
Lufthansa states that only around 2% of those that pass the whole selection process fail during flight training and have to be let go. Those figures seem to be consistent for the last 30 or 40 years.

I have no idea about any bonuses, it might be tied into the management of lufthansa flight training, but i guess, as the flight school is a rather small part of the whole LFT company, that economical performance figures are rather more important there.

I warrant that a huge proportion of the travelling public have no awareness of the other suicide events, have probably forgotten MH370 or the shoot down. In a few weeks pragmatism will set in and this too will sink on to oblivion.
At least true in germany, or rather those parts of the media i peruse (no, i don't "read" Bild). It is seen as singular event, even if, on the side, one or two of the other events are mentioned.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:00
  #2956 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThoddyEADS
And it will change the industry. And that is what Lubitz has told to his girlfriend.
Does that mean "the terrorist has won" or that the industry was in some way going so wrong that it needed something extreme to induce change? (Please don't shoot me for the question. Some of what I've read on PPRuNe and discussed in person with friends on the pilot side of the industry indicate some cultural issues that are of concern).
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:22
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To all the deniers out there who express doubts as to what may or may not have been picked up by the CVR, it is possible to build a small kit capable of detecting a human heart beat at 25 metres using just easily available consumer grade parts and a couple of cheap electret microphones the size of a pea.

If a cheap consumer microphone element costing less than a pound and mounted on an open circuit board can perform this well, how much better will a commercial grade microphone insert work?

Using multiple speakers placed where the original recording microphones were located, a soundscape can be recreated allowing precise estimates to be made of the placement of all sounds recorded.

The only limitation is the dynamic range available in the recording, which limits the amount of digital filtering and processing that can be reasonably applied.

It is perfectly possible to identify and place a soft key click to a given area in the soundscape, especially if background noise has been heavily filtered. Breathing sounds are a cinch. Given sufficient gain, the brush of fingertips against a control surface can be identified and located to a given point in space.

Any audiophile with a high end system can easily demonstrate how individual instruments playing in an orchestral piece can be identified and placed in space within playback of a good quality stereo or quadraphonic recording.

Microphones tend to exhibit a linear response over a wide range of frequencies and recordings have to be adjusted to match the logarithmic response of the human ear to sound realistic. Digital filtering and boosting specific frequencies in a recording enable sounds that are normally indiscernable to a human ear to be easily identified.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:25
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GOULI , to add to your substantial knowledge, I believe the copilot's boom mic would be tied into the CVR. How close do you need to get to get breathing?
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:26
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What the microphones are recording...


Post #2985 was nearly correct,but refering to the CAA rules.


Page 16 and 17 showing clearly the difference FAA/CAA;


ACARS ARCHITECTURE - Description and Operation - System Description_°Ù¶ÈÎÄ¿â
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:30
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skyhighfallguy

It would be possible to identify how many people were in the cockpit just from the sounds of breathing picked up by the area mic.

Breathing sounds can be picked up 50 metres away with the simple kit I described that can pick up heart beats at 25 metres.

This kit is used for tracking wildlife, just in case anyone thinks I am doing really weird stuff in the wild!
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