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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:01
  #2941 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In Hyperspace...
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IT IS BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE to hear breathing on a CVR unless oxygen masks are worn! Any mention aboutnhearing breating on the cvr is pure fantasy
I would like to know how many CVRs this poster, and others making similar claims, have actually analysed?

With the tools available to investigators, an enormous amount of information can be gleaned from a CVR audio recording alone.

Standing by for the continuation of the deniers after FDR is analysed... my guess is it will reveal little, if any, new information...
TheInquisitor is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:01
  #2942 (permalink)  
 
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Answer. If one pilot only is left in cockpit he/she required to put on oxygen mask!
That is true in the FAA world (at or above FL250), but not necessarily true in Europe / other parts of the world.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:10
  #2943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Not really

The cockpit needs to be kept safe, end of story.
Not really 'end of story' at all.

  1. Bad guys need to be kept out of the cockpit, no matter what.
  2. Good guys need to be able to get (back) into the cockpit, no matter what.
Both good and valid principles. But they can't both be true at the same time.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:43
  #2944 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Leightman

Ian I thoroughly agree that seeds of public mistrust have been planted, which is why I mentioned the 'mercurial potential of public
I warrant that a huge proportion of the travelling public have no awareness of the other suicide events, have probably forgotten MH370 or the shoot down. In a few weeks pragmatism will set in and this too will sink on to oblivion.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:52
  #2945 (permalink)  
 
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We know that there's only a 5% success rate for candidates at initial application stage.
Do we have metrics for cuts once traing has started and does LFT management have such metrics anchored in the agreed targets for their performance-based bonuses, possibly triggering our old friend, the Law of Unintended Consequences?
Lufthansa states that only around 2% of those that pass the whole selection process fail during flight training and have to be let go. Those figures seem to be consistent for the last 30 or 40 years.

I have no idea about any bonuses, it might be tied into the management of lufthansa flight training, but i guess, as the flight school is a rather small part of the whole LFT company, that economical performance figures are rather more important there.

I warrant that a huge proportion of the travelling public have no awareness of the other suicide events, have probably forgotten MH370 or the shoot down. In a few weeks pragmatism will set in and this too will sink on to oblivion.
At least true in germany, or rather those parts of the media i peruse (no, i don't "read" Bild). It is seen as singular event, even if, on the side, one or two of the other events are mentioned.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:00
  #2946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by ThoddyEADS View Post
And it will change the industry. And that is what Lubitz has told to his girlfriend.
Does that mean "the terrorist has won" or that the industry was in some way going so wrong that it needed something extreme to induce change? (Please don't shoot me for the question. Some of what I've read on PPRuNe and discussed in person with friends on the pilot side of the industry indicate some cultural issues that are of concern).
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:22
  #2947 (permalink)  
 
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To all the deniers out there who express doubts as to what may or may not have been picked up by the CVR, it is possible to build a small kit capable of detecting a human heart beat at 25 metres using just easily available consumer grade parts and a couple of cheap electret microphones the size of a pea.

If a cheap consumer microphone element costing less than a pound and mounted on an open circuit board can perform this well, how much better will a commercial grade microphone insert work?

Using multiple speakers placed where the original recording microphones were located, a soundscape can be recreated allowing precise estimates to be made of the placement of all sounds recorded.

The only limitation is the dynamic range available in the recording, which limits the amount of digital filtering and processing that can be reasonably applied.

It is perfectly possible to identify and place a soft key click to a given area in the soundscape, especially if background noise has been heavily filtered. Breathing sounds are a cinch. Given sufficient gain, the brush of fingertips against a control surface can be identified and located to a given point in space.

Any audiophile with a high end system can easily demonstrate how individual instruments playing in an orchestral piece can be identified and placed in space within playback of a good quality stereo or quadraphonic recording.

Microphones tend to exhibit a linear response over a wide range of frequencies and recordings have to be adjusted to match the logarithmic response of the human ear to sound realistic. Digital filtering and boosting specific frequencies in a recording enable sounds that are normally indiscernable to a human ear to be easily identified.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:25
  #2948 (permalink)  
 
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GOULI , to add to your substantial knowledge, I believe the copilot's boom mic would be tied into the CVR. How close do you need to get to get breathing?
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:26
  #2949 (permalink)  
 
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What the microphones are recording...


Post #2985 was nearly correct,but refering to the CAA rules.


Page 16 and 17 showing clearly the difference FAA/CAA;


ACARS ARCHITECTURE - Description and Operation - System Description_百度文库
no-hoper is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:30
  #2950 (permalink)  
 
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skyhighfallguy

It would be possible to identify how many people were in the cockpit just from the sounds of breathing picked up by the area mic.

Breathing sounds can be picked up 50 metres away with the simple kit I described that can pick up heart beats at 25 metres.

This kit is used for tracking wildlife, just in case anyone thinks I am doing really weird stuff in the wild!
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 19:49
  #2951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Two Person Rules

@IBMJunkman, 2 Apr 2015 at 09:17:

A good deal of what used to be human operations has been automated, but the two man and two officer rules did work for a number of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link

Like electronic countermeasures and electronic counter-countermeasures and their extensions, or cryptography and code-breaking, you never design an infallible system. You just keep working at it.

And as so many commenters have noted, knee-jerk reactions aren't the most productive method.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 20:37
  #2952 (permalink)  
 
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no-hoper:
What the microphones are recording...

Post #2985 was nearly correct,but refering to the CAA rules.

Page 16 and 17 showing clearly the difference FAA/CAA;

ACARS ARCHITECTURE - Description and Operation - System Description_百度文库
That looks to be an old document. Current FAA regs also require hot mics for the flight crew microphones.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 22:23
  #2953 (permalink)  
 
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The Inquisator/EPPO

I think fully automated aircraft are technically within our reach. I think they would face two major obstacles. One, development and implementation cost, and two public acceptance.
I must respectfully disagree with you on one point - and agree with you on another.

We are not even remotely close to technically replicating what a human pilot can bring to the game. There are those within my industry that would agree with you - but they, by and large, are the ones who work behind desks & computers and rely on numbers, theory, postulation and the 'art of the possible' - and almost to a man, have no actual operational experience of "Zero POB". Those of us who do know how it works in the real world, know the practical limitations of such things, as we have dealt with them in real life day-to-day.

Where we are in agreement is on cost. To design, build, test, certify and put into service just a remotely piloted airliner (not 'autonomous', which is technically well beyond our reach, and not even being discussed in regulatory circles) will be EXPONENTIALLY more costly than a traditional, manned, 2-pilot Flight Deck.

And that's before you even take into account the running costs of such things, which will require everything a manned airliner currently has, and IN ADDITON - reliable, assured, certified, broadband datalinks, and fully qualified and competent HUMAN pilots sitting in a GCS on the ground somewhere. The costs of the datalinks alone are eye-watering.

When a certain loudmouthed airline CEO gets around to doing his homework and sums (as the rest will eventually do) they will realise that the unmanned option for passenger transport simply isn't:

A) Technically possible at present, nor will it ever likely be; AND,

B) Exponentially more expensive, and therefore not commercially viable.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 23:31
  #2954 (permalink)  
 
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Lufthansa states that only around 2% of those that pass the whole selection process fail during flight training and have to be let go. Those figures seem to be consistent for the last 30 or 40 years.
There is something about that statistic I really do not like. It might tell us how good the selection filter is, but it might also be telling us how doggedly they hold to their initial, possibly incorrect, assessments. That nothing has changed over the last 30-40 years I also find quite troubling.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 00:41
  #2955 (permalink)  
 
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Sound of breating

Gouli, I think the disbelief probably originates from people thinking that because they can not hear the breathing through the headphones that the mic is not picking it up.

Two very different concepts.

A little bit of filtering and amplification would surely give you the breathing.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 01:46
  #2956 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Originally Posted by Pace View Post
The cause of this crash was the inability of the Captain to enter the flight deck and to recover a situation caused by a very mentally sick FO its as simple as that!!
Disagree. Remember crash of EgytpAir flight 990? Cockpit door was unlocked, suicidal co-pilot started tragic dive and when captain get back to the flight deck wasn't able to stop his actions. Door is not the key. It was just a factor. The real cause was (most probably) deliberate action from FO. Planned and cold blood (should say steady breath) executed.

And mental condition is a separate case. I really doubt he could be as sick as some delusional, psychotic person who see things and hear things. These types of diseases are very easy recognizable, visible to environment.
More likely he was an APD. And depression fueled by personal and professional problems was a trigger.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 03:02
  #2957 (permalink)  
 
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A little bit of filtering and amplification would surely give you the breathing.
Correct and when analyzing sound a spectrum analyzer give a 'visual picture' of frequencies of interest.

Example:

Cockpit background noise will have it's own frequency plot.
Aural alarms will have it's own frequency plot.
Electrical seat movement will have it's own frequency plot.
Someone banging cockpit will have own plot.
Breathing thru Full face mask will have it's own frequency plot.

A spectrum analyzer can differentiate all these.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 04:01
  #2958 (permalink)  
 
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That nothing has changed over the last 30-40 years I also find quite troubling.
Why, I can't recall us having the problem 40 years ago, If It Weren't Broke Then, Don't Fix It Now, leave what was working well alone ? One Swallow Does Not Make A Summer.

When was the first recorded incident of a pilot trying to commit suicide with a shed load of innocent passengers on board ? I have a vague recollection of a JAL DC-8 landing short, (or nearly landing short ?) at the old Haneda Airport?
( I know, I could Giggle it but Life's too short and I'm sure someone will do it !)

Maybe the first pilot who would have been accused of attempting suicide with an aeroplane as an accessory was Lindbergh ? I doubt that he would pass any of today's Risk Assessment modules now being forced upon the flying community.

I was once asked if the fact that I had responsibility for 300-400 lives weighed heavily on me ? I replied not, what weighed most heavily on my mind was my own survival, I flew the bit of the aeroplane that I could see in front of me, the rest just followed ! I flew the freighter aircraft with as much professionalism and responsibility as the passenger models. I guess that's where the term SLF comes from ?
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 04:07
  #2959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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IF you are hired by Germanwings, can you move to regular Lufthansa or not?
Yes. You can move to lufthansa mainline or lufthansa cargo if there are openings and the initial fleet freeze is over.

IF you just quit, is there still a requirement to repay the mortgage on the flight training?
Probably, but i have to say i don't know really, it is not a case that is usually considered.

There is something about that statistic I really do not like. It might tell us how good the selection filter is, but it might also be telling us how doggedly they hold to their initial, possibly incorrect, assessments
During my time there they had a formalized procedure how to deal with cadets that didn't show the required performance. Pretty similar to what most airlines do with normal pilots that flunk their simulator or line checks. Even for us non-Lufthansa cadets that paid for their own training it wasn't different and they had no problems at all to to let anyone go if his performance wasn't good enough, even if it meant a loss of revenue for them.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 06:34
  #2960 (permalink)  
 
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FDR

flynerd:

Dont let the scorched appearance fool you - the FDR is tough, I got to see them being built at the L3 factory in Sarasota, the steel "pot" the memory chips live in is well insulated and built to be cooked - rated as "50,000 BTU/sq. ft./hr. for 60 min. at 1100 C; 10 hrs. at 260 C"...so I expect it will be okay.
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