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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 3rd Aug 2014, 16:50
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The US and Russia have been doing elint surveillance on each others doorstep for decades. Usually barely in international waters, as was the case this time, when the rc-135 experienced a radar lock. Normally the surveillance planes just have a few close passes by the host country's fighters, no big deal. Russia's IL-20's were recently shooed away from the UK and Turkey's coastlines. Nothing new here, except for the radar lock.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 17:52
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Question What RADAR lock

Nothing new here, except for the radar lock.
NO mention of a radar lock !!

Please do not extrapolate from reference to TOP GUN movie by so called journalist - especially from CNN on a slow news day .
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 18:03
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the Russians took the unusual action of beginning to track it with land-based radar

When a radar "tracks" a target (as in azimuth and elevation) it is about as locked on as it gets. A periodic radar sweep is one thing, tracking a target is entirely a different matter.
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Old 3rd Aug 2014, 19:00
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Originally Posted by OleOle
Same images in higher resolution:
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...red/P5_039.jpg
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...red/P5_038.jpg
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...red/P5_030.jpg

That same frame is visible still attached to the spar in the other image above.
To me the bolts/screws are sheered and the post with the inset phillips head is a locating pillar, in can't secure anything as it has no head flange, and therefore suffered no stress when whatever was secured by the others departed with great force.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 05:42
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777 cockpit window info

http://www.ppg.com/coatings/aerospac...Summer2007.pdf
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 07:36
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Apologies if this is a repeat request, is there info on the fusing of the missile available, where both the contact and proximity fuse are located?
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 09:37
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Apologies if this is a repeat request, is there info on the fusing of the missile available, where both the contact and proximity fuse are located?
BUK-M1 dont have contact fuse (naval BUK-M1-2 have it) but only proximity fuse (9E241M1) with initiate range 17m or lesser with angle 120 degree or more.


1 - semi-active radar homing
2 - proximity fuse
3- warhead
Checking a fuse
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 09:41
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Here better images about how look 9M38M1
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 14:24
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GR, why?

As the proximity fuse must initiate the explosive train before the missile reaches the target it follows that it must be in the nose.

Impact fuzing is more problematical.

It will function as a result of a sudden deceleration. It could be behind the warhead but that risks breakup of the warhead before detonation. It follows that it will behind the proximity fuse system but close to it. Best position is as far forward as possible.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 14:42
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it follows that it must be in the nose.
Actually, not true. modern missiles often use a laser prox situated in the body of the missile well back from the nose seeker system - as is the warhead.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 15:07
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Certainly impact fuzing for some missiles was electrical contact on the fins. These had small warheads though and the idea was to allow the warhead to be inside the target before detonation. Partial destruction of the detonator was allowed for and it would still function for a short time (2-3 msec) after damage.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 18:21
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
GR, why?

As the proximity fuse must initiate the explosive train before the missile reaches the target it follows that it must be in the nose.

Impact fuzing is more problematical.

It will function as a result of a sudden deceleration. It could be behind the warhead but that risks breakup of the warhead before detonation. It follows that it will behind the proximity fuse system but close to it. Best position is as far forward as possible.
Every missile I have known [OK not that many] has the proximity fuse placed to trigger the warhead in the most effective way, usually close to the warhead position itself.

I was asking because of the thermal damage to the cockpit area remains.

The explosion must have been very close indeed.
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 20:45
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What is the point of all the Where's Waldo forensic photos with arrows and such?
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Old 4th Aug 2014, 20:54
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I believe it was postulated a few pages back that they would normally Fire two missiles for a higher PK.

I suggested that the damage suggested late functioning and as only one missile was launched it was an lucky hit.
1. Possible 2 missiles was fired (each from different position)
2. Fat target like 777 is very easy target - big radar cross-section, high alt, no speed, no maneurs, no electronic warfare, no chaffs, etc.
Radar equipment of SA-11 produced for kill targets with RCS=1sq.m.


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Old 4th Aug 2014, 22:35
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obvious

33M, obviously the point of a detailed forensic analysis, using incomplete information and lots of arrows, is to accomplish two key objectives:

1. To illustrate how knowledgeable the poster is
2. To illustrate flaws in Boeing's design that made this plane (and ostensibly others in its commercial lineup) extremely susceptible to being destroyed by a meager 6m long SAM going Mach 3+

I'm sure once Boeing sees these detailed forensic analyses their future planes will resemble the A-10 and/or Su-25.

I tend to believe theory #1 more

lmao at your post 33M - good one
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 00:42
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
GR, good answer. I believe it was postulated a few pages back that they would normally Fire two missiles for a higher PK.
Buk PK is pretty high anyway for a large a/c target - presuming whoever it was thought they were firing at a transport aircraft. Not sure two at once would be SOP, especially if you only have four. If fired from Schizne then there would be time for a second shot if the first misses.

I suggested that the damage suggested late functioning and as only one missile was launched it was an lucky hit.

Your supposition supports that.
Where it will go off will depend a lot on target radar profile (to the fuse radar), missile and approach angle. There are some combinations of missile/target/approach that result in zero PK (at least in simulation) usually due to the fuse triggering too soon. Note - if I ever knew details of any examples they are long forgotten, not that I could say anyway.

In this case, if the missile was approaching from directly below (or above) and fused at the side of the cockpit, then, yes, that looks a bit late.

On the other hand, if it is approaching from the front, maybe slightly to one side, it could be exactly as designed/expected. Depends on which part of the a/c the fuse will "see". It may be the wing box and/or engine fan that is the biggest return or centre of it. Fuse distance seems most often quoted as 17m, although I have seen other numbers (large radius zone, this is a big warhead). By my reckoning, approaching from front slightly to one side, 17m from wing box / engine on a 777 would put you right about the cockpit window...
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 01:29
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Originally Posted by ThreeThreeMike
What is the point of all the Where's Waldo forensic photos with arrows and such?
I would have thought it was to supply information to the debate as to where the missile hit and what direction it flew, so possibly who fired it.

I also appreciate their aircraft/airframe knowledge and the photoshop skills.

One thing it has certainly confirmed is the crew never knew what hit them it was instant

Last edited by oldoberon; 5th Aug 2014 at 02:53. Reason: typo
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 04:48
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about warhead of missle

Accordingly this
http://www.ctro.hr/universalis/175/d...1606332201.pdf
On the 7th slide there are interesting captured frames of detonation of the projectile. The peculiarity is that detonation generates relatively a narrow stripe of small fragments and this somehow should be portrayed on the fuselage but distance play a key role in that case.
On the 9th slide there is interesting graph about velocities distribution of the fragments.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 12:20
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One thing it has certainly confirmed is the crew never knew what hit them it was instant
Between the sudden decompression and the blast wave of the warhead detonation, it was instant for everybody.

That recorded rebel speculation that the plane had been carrying corpses is, of course, nonsense. But it was based on observations that the bodies were not bleeding, looked like they were dead before they hit the ground. Without going into morbid details, I can only say that a close look at the available photos confirms this.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 15:32
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I have trouble believing it was "instant" death for all on board. A couple of seconds at least for some, I feel that a small few would have had only a couple to few seconds of realising something is wrong before death.
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