Bomber pilot helped land airliner after captain fell ill

[YorkshireTyke]

nitpicker330

Totally agree, I sincerely hope that I'm never a passenger with stilton when he has to prove that he can emulate Superman - and work like a one armed paperhanger at the same time ! If he asks, and I'm on board, I'll tell him to get on with it -mate !

I'd take any warm body, even if they only sat in the jump seat and kept their mouth shut, just in case I might want some sort of hand ( I might even drop my pen at the wrong time !! ) if not, no harm done.

As you say, what's the problem ?

[RetiredF4]

Since when does a military bomber pilot have the credentials and / or experience to 'assess' a civilian jet transport pilot operating an aircraft they are completely unfamiliar with and not qualified on in a totally different environment than what they are accustomed to ?

He has no credetials and expierience to "assess", agreed. But where does it say, that to "assess" was the task needed in this situation?

..... completely unfamiliar with...

is probably exagerated somewhat. Basic flight instruments are the same in any aircraft, the switchology might be different, the interpretation of the information displayed should pose no problem. Before 911 I got two jump seat rides in A 320, and i had no trouble to identify all relevant information concerning position, attitude, altitude, track, speed, fuel, engines, radios and navaids within the first few minutes, despite my expierience was only fast jet analoge instrumentation. That does not qualify to handle the jet, but is enough to monitor and assist in some tasks if required.

..... in a total different environment....

The procedures, airspace, radio comm, rules and regs and the navaids and charts as well as the appropriate approaches available for IFR Flying are almost the same for any aircraft in that airspace structure, being it a commercial jet or a military fast jet or bomber aircraft.

.......they would be more trouble than they are worth..

You look from a point of skygod position on the abilities of military pilots concerning their general abilities for monitoring and assisting in conductung an IFR flight, you even seem mistrust their ability to adopt a role below the command position and fear interference in the safe operation of the aircraft by such military pilots.

May i remind, that the military is using crew concept procedures since two seat aircraft like the F4 were introduced nearly 50 years ago with clear definition of tasks and authority regardless of rank or seat position.

A pilot, who after some issue with the other pilot like in this discussed happening feels safer alone in a two crew cockpit than with an aditional set of eyes (FA, unqualified pilot, qualified pilot) should look for outside advice.

[kaikohe76]

Can anybody, possibly with contacts with the Airline concerned, please explain clearly, just what are the duties & responsibilities of Co Pilots within this company?

[rh200]

Seems to be a few people with penis envy in relation to this particular problem. Obviously I'm wrong, but I thought it was standard procedure to see if there's any one to help out.

As for preference to pilots, and have p!ssing contest in being "qualified", you are entirely correct technically. From a practical hands on viewpoint, I would think a fellow pilot, who's used to heavy high performance aircraft, might be a bit more of a help, than maybe a 152 pilot, if it was to hit the fan .

Since when does a military bomber pilot have the credentials and / or experience to 'assess' a civilian jet transport pilot operating an aircraft they are completely unfamiliar with and not qualified on in a totally different environment than what they are accustomed to ?

I would think by the time you get to that level, making an assessment if somebody's "loosing it" or not is most likely up their ally. Like all senoir people in, or out of the military in a senior position, evaluating abnormal situations would be par for the course. People do and have fallen apart under unusual circumstances, we are only human.

[nitpicker330]

Yes I think someone here needs to get a grip.

A highly experienced swept wing high performance IFR Jet Pilot would certainly be of use in the flight deck.

I would certainly welcome him under similar circumstances.

This FO was lucky to have him shotgun.

Now for goodness sake take a chill pill PLEASE.

[VR-HFX]

Here I was thinking Stilton was a mature cheese

I'm with my colleague Nitpicker.

An experienced heavy jet pilot provides an extra layer of safety, especially if something else goes wrong.

[Tourist]

Stilton

No.

It may be politically incorrect to say it, but it is nothing like putting a civvy pilot in for a B1 Bombing mission.

I left the military as do thousands of others each year and went for sim rides in Airbus and Boeing aircraft. It was never pretty but I was able to takeoff fly the route each time and land in aircraft I was totally untrained for.

A civilian pilot or even another military pilot could not climb into a B1 and fly a bombing mission.

If you believe the jobs compare then you are being very silly.

Get airborne in a B1 and then land it?
Maybe.
Bombing mission?
Idiocy.

[deptrai]

Given the outcome of the emergency, that the aircraft landed safely, and the incapacitated captain got medical help, I find it incredible that a few here appear to second-guess the decisions made by the pilot in command. If you would do it differently in your cockpit, it's your decision, and if you would have landed the aircraft safely all alone thats fine, but in this case it wasn't you, and you weren't there. It should be possible to have a debate about what decisions to make and why, in a hypothetical situation, but not without a bit of respect for those who have actually been there and successfully managed such a situation. As a professional courtesy, acknowledging that your colleague did well would not hurt, even if you think you would have chosen a different course of action. Labelling a fellow professionals' decision as a "mistake" seems a bit harsh and unnecessary in this case.

As for (company) regulations, they can't possibly cover every situation in all detail. They are there for a reason, and should be adhered to strictly, yet there should be wiggle room for a pic to deviate if he deems it justified in an emergency. If there is a policy to only let pilots from your own outfit assist in case of incapacitation, maybe it's because assessing exactly which other pilots could be qualified to assist would require an additional 20 pages (with the input of lawyers and insurance companies), and that is beyond the scope of a practical decision make guideline. Imagine you are in her situation, you ask for pilots, and there's "only" an experienced heavy jet driver coming forth, who has flown into the airport you are about to land at before (not the freshly type rated inhouse mpl cadet the regulations would - theoretically - allow). You're obviously fully qualified yourself, but you'd appreciate someone to handle checklists and atc, and possibly an extra pair of eyes.
If the pilot in command, there and then, decided that the Lancer pilot would be of help, I think that can be justified. It's not completey unreasonable.

[latetonite]

Again a thread where common sense is phased out.

[Elephant and Castle]

This has nothing to do with one man bands, heroics or anything of the sort. The problem is how to get the airplane down to a suitable airfield as safely and quickly as possible so our colleague can get expert medical help.

If the level of experience and knowledge of the potential "assistant" can get that job done quicker and with an increased level of safety I am all for it. If they are there just to make me feel better I dont need the distraction, I have a job to do and I am pretty busy. I certainly dont want to use ten minutes explaining how the seat is adjusted, how the radios work, where we are and where are we going, what is our call sign, etc, etc, etc

A company pilot, great. Another airline pilot rated on the same type, good. A small turboprop operator from another continent, hum. Everyone else, in my view, would just add to the workload and contribute little to achieve the task at hand. Either way in most circumstances all will be over inside 20 minutes. No heroics involved here, just fly the aircraft as we do every day. If I drop my pen, no problem I just leave it there, I dont expect to be doing much writting. Not until I get to the office anyway.

[rh200]

A small turboprop operator from another continent, hum. Everyone else, in my view, would just add to the workload and contribute little to achieve the task at hand.

Rather sad, a small turbo prop operator rates a hum, above and experienced high performance heavy military pilot.

An experienced heavy jet pilot provides an extra layer of safety, especially if something else goes wrong.

What I truly find sad, is the inability to think laterally and try and use your available resources. The fact is there is a multitude of things that could go wrong, engine failure, multiple engine failure, fire, electrical issues, alarms going off etc etc.

Though you would have to think that you would be given a stacked deck if that just happened to occur at this time, that said I'm a big believer in Murphys law. Another words the holes in the swiss cheese lining up.

The fact is, if that was to happen, there would be only one person who is practically qualified to quickly go though the systems on the aircraft to identify any issues, and determin their importance. Whilst there are two people who could most likely handle the aircraft manually.

I'm not sure what your single pilot training says about handling multiple emergencies at the same time. But at the end of the day, you can only make a decision on the circumstances at the time.

[Mozella]

Stilton Says:
That's my point, she did NOT do what she was trained to and did NOT follow company policy.

Do you know this for a fact, or are you just making stuff up?

I worked for a major competitor of UAL so I don't know their policy but I would be surprised if it was not the same as at my airline. It was written right in the policy manual that in cases like this we should put the best qualified person the empty seat even if that meant a flight attendant. In addition, we trained for it in the sim. Furthermore, landing the aircraft solo would subject the F/O to criticism and at a minimum a "rug dance" in the Chief Pilot's office or even a hearing. I've never been, but they used to say "You won't like it. To start with, all the ash trays are at the other end of the table".

If you are actually a pilot (in real life, not just on the Internet), please post your company and full name so if I ever get on a flight and hear it mentioned on the PA I can bail out before they remove the jetway.

[Elephant and Castle]

. If you are actually a pilot (in real life, not just on the Internet), please post your company and full name so if I ever get on a flight and hear it mentioned on the PA I can bail out before they remove the jetway.

I would like to see that. You explaining to your tearful family that the holiday is canceled as they watch from the terminal the airplane pushing back. "I think is the same pilot that wrote in internet that if the captain had a heart attack he would not ask me to come and save the day for him, we are not going"

[Um... lifting...]

When a pax I've been asked before pushback by a (probably) overzealous flight attendant if I would be willing to assist in the event of an emergency (I have a baggage tag which indicates my line of work). My seat mate's eyes grew large as saucers as I tried to explain that it was very unlikely such a thing might happen.

When up front I've had a pilot in the opposite seat (not rated in category or class) on a familiarization flight which was diverted to a SAR case. While I could have handled the flight without him, he was definitely useful and I was glad of his assistance. Granted I knew the fellow, and we were part of the same organization so I knew his capabilities as well as his limitations in my machine.

Basics of monitoring flight parameters, copying clearances, and the like, are fully within the capacity of any multi-crew qualified pilot, whether that pilot is going from a B-1B to a 737 as in this case, or coming from a twin turbofan into a helicopter, as was the case with my colleague. If that pilot has operated a FMS, so much the better, but aviation radio tuning ain't exactly rocket science, whether it's a King stack or some other interface. My working ride at the moment has the same FMS as many current Boeing products. It just also happens to have rotor blades.

Things like seat adjustment are red herrings unless you intend the person to do any of the handling, which I suspect is unlikely. In any case, there is this procedure (perhaps you have heard of it) called "holding". A couple of requested turns might be prudent rather than trying to shove someone into the opposite seat inside the FAF.

Every case is going to be different. A non type rated pilot coming forward from the cabin may not have been useful for UAL 232 as a type rated training captain like Dennis Fitch was, but you never know. In the end, it was the FOs call to make, it turned out successfully, and only the truly churlish would second-guess that.

[LeadSled]

That's my point, she did NOT do what she was trained to and did NOT follow company policy.

Stilton,

Do you actually know that to be the case?
Do you work for UAL as a pilot?

Until recently, I worked for a airline, with an impeccable safety record, what the F/O did, in this case, could have been right out of the SOPs for incapacitation of my airline --- and many others.

[Ancient Observer]

Pprune and Politicians

There is more hot air in this thread than one gets from a year of Politicians.

And I thought politicians were bad.

[OFSO]

I have been in a few extreme situations in my life (although not flying related). Under such circumstances the rule book goes out of the window and you make use of what assets are available. Who determines if the situation is extreme ? You do, based on your qualifications and more importantly, your experience.

The difference between survival and non-survival depends on understanding this, and that will provide you with an "afterwards" in which you can sort matters out at leasure.

[deptrai]

Could anyone with actual knowledge of UAL SOP's (no you don't need to identify yourself as an employee...you can claim you gleaned this knowledge from your friend) shed some light on what a pic is allowed to do in an emergency like this, according to company policies? I'm not the biggest fanboy of aviation regulators, but usually they include a provision like "In an emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot-in-command may deviate from any rule" (quoting the FAA). And I think any operator will have similar provisions. Am i naive? Would company regulations make her actions questionable? This was a non-standard situation, even an emergency, and imho the pic did everything right, from what i know. Please don't tell me according to some rule she made a mistake?

[Intruder]

UAL's SOP is irrelevant. In an emergency, FAA regulations give the PIC full authority to do anything [s]he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the flight:

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

[deptrai]

Thank you Intruder. Common sense prevails. Case closed.