Bomber pilot helped land airliner after captain fell ill

[glendalegoon]

Definition of copilot: A fully qualified pilot ACTING as second in command.

[Torque Tonight]

Correct, and with the captain incapacitated the FO becomes the new Captain of the aircraft.

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

In other words, is there any protocol for a passenger to over rule the captain if an aircraft? No, of course not.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Actually, there is a legal precedent for a passenger assuming command. It's called a hijack. That is exactly what this would have been classed as if the decision had been made to assume command, and rightly so - a B1-B pilot would know next to nothing about flying the 737, just as a 737 pilot would know nothing about the B1. It's one thing to offer help and advice, but is quite another to take control. Now, had the FO been incapacitated too, then that's a different matter.

[ettore]

Just wondering what all the training, simulator sessions, qualifications and further checks on a specific type of a/c are meant for ? A jet fighter pilot can simply walk in and take the left seat of any civil arliner after a 10 seconds "silent assessment" ?

PS : you don't need to be Al Queada to crash a plane. An amateur would pretty easely do it too.

[400drvr]

Much a do about nothing.

I think the FO did what she thought was necessary to get her passengers and ailing skipper on the ground. Last time I checked the 737 is a 2 pilot plane. As I understand this story, the FO who was qualified to fly the airplane did the flying and the Lancer pilot was supporting her with checklist and ATC etc... At the end of the day everybody went home and the skipper is recovering. I would say a best case outcome for everybody.

[pattern_is_full]

An "assessment" doesn't mean "should I take over control or not?"

It can just mean "Does this person need a bit (or a lot) of psychological/emotional support - in addition to an extra pair of hands?"

That is not gender-specific, BTW. Anyone will be shaken by a colleague going into an acute medical emergency an elbow's length away. And not everyone can get their focus back at the same "Captain Ironman" rate. So you check.

As to this thread - keep your eyes on the big picture. Fixating on small details is a BAD habit for pilots - from Eastern 401 on down. I hope the people fixating on this offhand comment or that legalism are the simmers and wannabees - and not the real pilots.

The big picture here was - two individuals were put into a tricky situation. They each did their assessment of the situation, which included assessing their surprise partner (one factor in the situation). Probably faster than it took me to type it.

Decided "You're good. I'm good. Let's get to work." And did.

[Phil Space]

Ettore said...
Just wondering what all the training, simulator sessions, qualifications and further checks on a specific type of a/c are meant for ? A jet fighter pilot can simply walk in and take the left seat of any civil arliner after a 10 seconds "silent assessment" ?

PS : you don't need to be Al Queada to crash a plane. An amateur would pretty easely do it too.

Fair point and I suspect the average jet bus driver could not land a Cherokee

[Mozella]

........................ The big picture here was - two individuals were put into a tricky situation. They each did their assessment of the situation, which included assessing their surprise partner (one factor in the situation). Probably faster than it took me to type it....................

Exactly. I'm retired now, but my airline trained for just this eventuality using a procedure exactly like this F/O used. Frankly, I'm surprised that some apparently consider this event to be a situation where the F/O would have to make up a procedure on the fly. Isn't pilot incapacitation part of every company's training? Incidentally, our Captains were trained to use the same procedure if the F/O shot craps for some reason.

Of course, a Captain from your own company current on your aircraft and flying as a non-rev or dead-head would be your first choice as an ersatz flying partner. Any other airline pilot next Then military pilots, and even down to one of your flight attendants who might have had a few flying lessons.

Sure, any F/O should be able to land the aircraft solo, but only a fool would choose that option first.

By the way, our F/Os were prohibited from taxiing aircraft although we were allowed to use a high speed turn off using pedal steering at the Captain's discretion. But in an emergency, naturally the F/O would taxi using the tiller, swapping seats if necessary after landing.

The people expressing reservations about asking a military pilot to assist don't know much about the military and, I suspect, are weak when it comes to command authority. If an F/O can't maintain command in the cockpit no matter who comes in to assist, then he/she isn't someone I would want to see promoted to Captain.

It won't come as a surprise to any ex-military types that military pilots, above all others, know all about chain of command. For example, when push comes to shove, Admirals riding on U.S. Navy aircraft, pilot qualified or not, are not able to override the pilot in command even if the pilot is an enlisted man. I guarantee the B-1 pilot was not on the verge of hijacking the aircraft.

However, I'm also sure the B-1 pilot had some concern about what he would encounter when he entered the cockpit, probably more concern then the F/O when the flight attendant told her, "All we could get is a B-1 pilot". The B-1 pilot might have found someone nearly incapacitated by panic or perhaps even by food poisoning. Anyone with half a brain would want to immediately try to assess the situation. As it turned out, he found a qualified F/O fully in charge of the situation, they immediately got down to working as a team under her command, and that was that.

I can't criticize anything about the event except one or two of the odd posts in this thread.

[Sky Slug]

The single tiller is one of the dumbest concepts in aviation. I fly an aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars. They save how much? $10k on a tiller for each side of the aircraft? I am expected to takeoff, land, and manage systems through the worst possible conditions, but I can't taxi an aircraft in normal conditions as a FO?

[Tourist]

Mozella

Very well put.

[Reinhardt]

Some pilots get the necessary training to act as PF/Captain on any aircraft, without type-ratings.... there are not many of them, but it does exist.


Difficult to figure for civilian or military pilots stuck with single-type ratings.

[bubbers44]

All pilots with a type rating in something large could fly as PF in most any other aircraft. Systems may be a bit different but they all basically fly the same.

Of course in a situation like this the FO would be PF and the other pilot assist as necessary starting with check lists and ATC.

She did everything as we all would have. Get the best available assistance and land.

[blowtorch]

Have not read all the posts on this but does anyone recall the following story?


Air Canada flight diverted after co-pilot falls ill - World - CBC News

[Tankertrashnav]

I have a friend who did about 10 hours on Cessnas before deciding that learning to fly wasn't for him.

At a barbeque I overheard his wife saying - Im glad he had those lessons, because I know that if the pilot drops dead when we are flying away on holiday he will be able to take over and land the plane!

I didn't like to disillusion her!

[misd-agin]

"The single tiller is one of the dumbest concepts in aviation. I fly an aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars. They save how much? $10k on a tiller for each side of the aircraft? I am expected to takeoff, land, and manage systems through the worst possible conditions, but I can't taxi an aircraft in normal conditions as a FO?"

Besides indulging in your desire to taxi the a/c what's the operational or financial benefit from providing a second tiller?

[TeachMe]

From a linguistic perspective (my MA),

The original article sounds a lot like a military feel good genre of writing. It was most probably was not written by a pilot, but by someone who studied journalism and enlisted in the service. I suspect that both the pilots would disagree with the pragmatic effect the utterance about 'sizing each other up' had on the audience. I suspect something like 'both of us assessed the situation' would be a lot more accurate an assessment of what went on.

As for the actual pilot stuff, I will leave that up to those qualified

[Aluminium shuffler]

TeachMe, I think you're probably right. The whole article is blown out of proportion and the ASAF seem to have over zealously grasped a "we saved the day" story. For clarification, my last post wa not an assertion of what I though had happened but a response to the comments prior about there being no legal framework for the situation.

To be honest, I doubt a seasoned and senior USAF Officer and pilot would be so cavalier as full of bluster as to try to assume control unless it was really needed. However, military pilots tend by and large to have strong personalities, where civil pilots are a very mixed bag of character types and strengths. The potential for a CRM issue is high, but again one would hope the experience as a senior commander would have been enough that he knew how to handle the situation. A fresh-out-of-training fast jet jockey might have been a different matter, if they got the "wrong" one.

[misd-agin]

AS - I spend several years amongst the group you seem to question and I know hundreds, if not more than a thousand, prior military and civilian pilots. I doubt even the 'wrong one' would step into the cockpit and pull an Al Haig - "I'm in charge now."

And I doubt even the 'wrong one', freshly out of training, thought they're the one to tell the FO "take a hike, I'm in charge now."

[Aluminium shuffler]

I'm not suggesting they'd do that, but their strong personality and high confidence could result in them becoming the commander all the same. I have been a part of both camps, so I know the different ethos and mentalities.

[Airbubba]

It won't come as a surprise to any ex-military types that military pilots, above all others, know all about chain of command. For example, when push comes to shove, Admirals riding on U.S. Navy aircraft, pilot qualified or not, are not able to override the pilot in command even if the pilot is an enlisted man.

Actually, current Navy Regs, Chapter 10, Section 2, Paragraph 1031, Authority of Officers Embarked as Passengers, states: 'The commanding officer of a ship or aircraft, not a flagship, with a flag officer eligible for command at sea embarked, shall be subject to the orders of such flag officer.'

I believe the last enlisted U.S. naval aviator retired in 1981.

However, I'm also sure the B-1 pilot had some concern about what he would encounter when he entered the cockpit, probably more concern then the F/O when the flight attendant told her, "All we could get is a B-1 pilot".

Like you, I would prefer a naval aviator or maybe even a Marine naval aviator but, in a pinch, a Bone driver would do.

The original article sounds a lot like a military feel good genre of writing. It was most probably was not written by a pilot, but by someone who studied journalism and enlisted in the service. I suspect that both the pilots would disagree with the pragmatic effect the utterance about 'sizing each other up' had on the audience. I suspect something like 'both of us assessed the situation' would be a lot more accurate an assessment of what went on.

I agree. And, years ago I would consider some of the banter here about legality to be nonsense in an emergency situation. However, the feds are increasingly compliance and documentation oriented it seems. I find myself thinking more CYA and 'how would this look at the hearing' than thinking about the safest, most efficient way to operate the aircraft.

Hope the captain is back to work after the one year medical observation period and the FO and B-1 pilot have better careers than mine!