BA460 heavy landing on March 12th
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A few facts might be of interest
Andrew Barnes' body was found on Hythe Beach in Kent on April 11 and he was off work from March 12th.
Flight BA460 from Heathrow to Madrid landed at the Spanish Barajas airport on March 12. Eight members of the cabin crew were signed off sick after the landing.
The aircraft continued to operate flights as scheduled and no contact from customers concerned about the landing.
Sure looks like media trying to make news where there is simply a death of someone who was on a plane that had a hard landing a month before.
Flight BA460 from Heathrow to Madrid landed at the Spanish Barajas airport on March 12. Eight members of the cabin crew were signed off sick after the landing.
The aircraft continued to operate flights as scheduled and no contact from customers concerned about the landing.
Sure looks like media trying to make news where there is simply a death of someone who was on a plane that had a hard landing a month before.
It truly beggars belief that someone can trust an unlicenced amateur radar tracking site that is notorious for its inaccuracy and a group of militant cabin crew and then accuse the entire pilot community, CAA, FOQA, the passengers involved and BA management of closing ranks . And we wonder why the media are so poor at reporting accurate news...
The 'media' are not interested in accuracy, just selling newspapers or advertising time.
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It truly beggars belief that someone can trust an unlicenced amateur radar tracking site that is notorious for its inaccuracy...
- All cabin crew were assessed as unfit to continue duties.
- The Captain, whether PF or PNF, reportedly apologised on the PA for the landing. Yet BA reportedly declared a 'normal landing'.
- The Captain reportedly blamed the wind, yet another source reports that the wind was light and virtually constant.
- There are no reports of a heavy landing check. So what was the Captain apologising for?
- There are no reports of an MOR being filed.
- There are no reports that the CAA have been involved.
...and a group of militant cabin crew and then accuse the entire pilot community, CAA, FOQA, the passengers involved and BA management of closing ranks.
- Where is the basis of your suspicion that 'a group of militant cabin crew' exist? How does such a group form when it is composed of individuals who are extremely unlikely to work together as precisely that same group on anything other than very rare occasions, if ever?
- Where is it published that anyone is 'accusing the entire pilot community' of anything?
- Where is it published that anyone is 'accusing the CAA' of anything?
- Where is it published that anyone is 'accusing FOQA' of anything?
- Where is it published that anyone is 'accusing the passengers involved' of anything?
Are 'BA management closing ranks'? Do you have proof whether they are? Does that possibility 'beggar belief'?
How do you "know" they were "assessed" as unfit to continue duties? If you had ever worked in BA you might have some idea of the work ethic and culture of some work groups where the first port of call is to the union rather than line management. I've had plenty of landings well within "normal" parameters which the passengers might have felt as firm. I've been asked to apologise for a landing by a captain even though there was nothing wrong it other than being more agricultural than usual.
As for the wind, the surface wind may have been light and variable but do you know what the winds were on approach? Was there any shear? Was there an inversion?
As for heavy landing check, only needs to be raised if in the opinion of the captain, it's required or there is an ACMS print out. So, as explained above and earlier, he might well have apologised but that doesn't mean that it necessarily meets the criterion for a heavy landing check.
As for militant cabin crew? Have you no memory of recent industrial disputes within BA? Pprune is not the place to air dirty laundry but your witch hunt is mis-directed and I'll-informed.
As for the wind, the surface wind may have been light and variable but do you know what the winds were on approach? Was there any shear? Was there an inversion?
As for heavy landing check, only needs to be raised if in the opinion of the captain, it's required or there is an ACMS print out. So, as explained above and earlier, he might well have apologised but that doesn't mean that it necessarily meets the criterion for a heavy landing check.
As for militant cabin crew? Have you no memory of recent industrial disputes within BA? Pprune is not the place to air dirty laundry but your witch hunt is mis-directed and I'll-informed.
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How do you "know" they were "assessed" as unfit to continue duties?
'Crew were examined by paramedics on the aircraft who confirmed that they were not fit to operate as crew but were fit to passenger back.'
'…the crew were signed off sick by a doctor and none has flown since. Claimed injuries include damage to legs, neck, back, vertebrae and coccyx. A legal case against BA is being considered.'
If you had ever worked in BA you might have some idea of the work ethic and culture of some work groups where the first port of call is to the union rather than line management.
I've had plenty of landings well within "normal" parameters which the passengers might have felt as firm.
I've been asked to apologise for a landing by a captain even though there was nothing wrong it other than being more agricultural than usual.
As for heavy landing check, only needs to be raised if in the opinion of the captain, it's required or there is an ACMS print out.
'Hard landings can vary in seriousness from simply causing mild passenger discomfort to situations resulting in serious vehicle damage, structural failure, injuries, and/or loss of life.'
My bold formatting.
Injuries are referenced in my earlier text of this post. Based upon that, injuries occurred; the only conclusion can therefore be that the landing was a heavy landing.
So, as explained above and earlier, he might well have apologised but that doesn't mean that it necessarily meets the criterion for a heavy landing check.
As for militant cabin crew? Have you no memory of recent industrial disputes within BA?
Pprune is not the place to air dirty laundry...
...your witch hunt is mis-directed and I'll-informed.
As for ill informed, I am obliged to work with the material available, extracted from a thorough online search.
Please supply the well informed material you most certainly must posses, for how else can you possibly be qualified to claim that available material is incorrect or inadequate?
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Given that:
"'…the crew were signed off sick by a doctor and none has flown since. Claimed injuries include damage to legs, neck, back, vertebrae and coccyx. A legal case against BA is being considered.'"
if I was BA, if there was any real basis in this, I would now have contacted all of the pax and arranged independent medical investigations for them in order to mimimise any future liabilities, and to conform with my duty of care. Is there any evidence of that sort of activity ?
"'…the crew were signed off sick by a doctor and none has flown since. Claimed injuries include damage to legs, neck, back, vertebrae and coccyx. A legal case against BA is being considered.'"
if I was BA, if there was any real basis in this, I would now have contacted all of the pax and arranged independent medical investigations for them in order to mimimise any future liabilities, and to conform with my duty of care. Is there any evidence of that sort of activity ?
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Coming across as a bit Anal, there, Mr. Schroedinger.
for example..
Where did he say that he was the P.F.?....He didn't!...Merely that the Captain delegated the task to him.
Jeez, a bunch of precious wilting violets appear to have ganged up on one or more flight-crew to "mix them a bottle" (a Northern term for "causing them some trouble!)
The present litigious climate ensures that any poor lamb that bleats about "pain" or "discomfort" Is given disproportionately excessive credence....It's commonly called "ass-covering" The penalty for dismissing frivolous and spurious reports, is so much higher than the penalty for getting it wrong, there is an absolute incentive to "tick all the boxes", as the professional gets zero credit for weeding out malingerers and cheats.......the fact that the entire contingent of Pax apparently failed to file any adverse reports, despite the "ambulance-chasing claim-leeches", suggests a strong odour of piscine decomposition.
I rest my case.
for example..
Quote:I've been asked to apologise for a landing by a captain even though there was nothing wrong it other than being more agricultural than usual.
Your opinion of your own abilities in that respect and in that instance is clearly at complete odds with that of your Captain. Do you often disagree with your Captain?
Your opinion of your own abilities in that respect and in that instance is clearly at complete odds with that of your Captain. Do you often disagree with your Captain?
Jeez, a bunch of precious wilting violets appear to have ganged up on one or more flight-crew to "mix them a bottle" (a Northern term for "causing them some trouble!)
The present litigious climate ensures that any poor lamb that bleats about "pain" or "discomfort" Is given disproportionately excessive credence....It's commonly called "ass-covering" The penalty for dismissing frivolous and spurious reports, is so much higher than the penalty for getting it wrong, there is an absolute incentive to "tick all the boxes", as the professional gets zero credit for weeding out malingerers and cheats.......the fact that the entire contingent of Pax apparently failed to file any adverse reports, despite the "ambulance-chasing claim-leeches", suggests a strong odour of piscine decomposition.
I rest my case.
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I've had plenty of landings well within "normal" parameters which the passengers might have felt as firm.
Why should Ham Phisted stating that he has had plenty of normal landings imply incorrect technique or inadequate basic ability? Do you have any evidence...
Good landing: right place, right speed, right attitude. Boeing, and if I remember correctly Airbus, specifically advise against holding off to achieve a gentle touchdown. Unfortunately, there's not many professional pilots on these forums any more.
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I came here to seek the truth, given that there is so much conflicting information regarding this flight.
I'm clearly wasting my time, except to raise a question in perceptive minds as to how many BA managers and/or their minions are posting.
Anyone know of any Professional Pilot Rumour Networks online?
I'm clearly wasting my time, except to raise a question in perceptive minds as to how many BA managers and/or their minions are posting.
Anyone know of any Professional Pilot Rumour Networks online?
I'm clearly wasting my time, except to raise a question in perceptive minds as to how many BA managers and/or their minions are posting.
What truth, exactly, are you seeking and why? Perhaps might raise a question in perceptive minds how many muck-raking journos are posting?
the lunatic fringe
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I'm clearly wasting my time, except to raise a question in perceptive minds as to how many BA managers and/or their minions are posting.
I have read your shrill "questions" in this thread. Your questions demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how the world of aviation works, from the individual, corporate, to the governmental level. I understand some of your logic, but it is logic born of ignorance.
Quoting Wikipedia to define a "hard landing" is simply not good enough.
Quote: I've had plenty of landings well within "normal" parameters which the passengers might have felt as firm.
Answer: 'Plenty' might suggest incorrect technique or inadequate basic ability. Have you considered seeking the input of more experienced, qualified training pilots in similar conditions?
That passage perfectly demonstrates why PPRuNe and you are mostly irrelevant to a professional pilot.
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Schroedinger, you are clearly not trying to establish the truth - that is already plain. You are trawling for dirt to create a "terror in the skies" headline and blame pilots for a non-incident.
BA cabin crew are notoriously militant, and any chance at embarrassing a management pilot will be made the best of. As for the crews' reported injuries, we all know how that works, just like whiplash claims in the car insurance industry.
If you couldn't find a bunch of claims by the passengers, then accept this is a cock and bull story by disgruntled staff who don't face strong enough disciplinary processes. As for your suggestions to professional pilots that they seek training to make sure every landing is perfect, I'd love to see you manage something so complex with utter perfection every time. The autopilots can't do it, and often come down with a bump, and so will humans, but there is a world of difference between a bumpy landing and a heavy landing. Trust me, if it had been heavy, you'd have your passenger quotes. Now, I suggest you heed your own advice and get some retraining over your own professional standards.
BA cabin crew are notoriously militant, and any chance at embarrassing a management pilot will be made the best of. As for the crews' reported injuries, we all know how that works, just like whiplash claims in the car insurance industry.
If you couldn't find a bunch of claims by the passengers, then accept this is a cock and bull story by disgruntled staff who don't face strong enough disciplinary processes. As for your suggestions to professional pilots that they seek training to make sure every landing is perfect, I'd love to see you manage something so complex with utter perfection every time. The autopilots can't do it, and often come down with a bump, and so will humans, but there is a world of difference between a bumpy landing and a heavy landing. Trust me, if it had been heavy, you'd have your passenger quotes. Now, I suggest you heed your own advice and get some retraining over your own professional standards.
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The problem for cabin crew at their door positions, is that the jump seats on the 767 are just a pull down flap that offers little protection from a severe landing or crash, compared to the padded comfort of a passenger seat. There is nothing to absorb the impact energy apart from the crew member perched there.
Accusing BA cabin crew of being "notoriously militant", or casting aspersions that the injuries were no more than some fraudulent and spurious whiplash injury claim, is a serious libel by Aluminium Shuffler.
As for the cabin crew using the incident to embarrass a management pilot, does seem rather far fetched. BA pilots are more than capable of embarrassing themselves, as the written off 747 in JNB is testament to.
Accusing BA cabin crew of being "notoriously militant", or casting aspersions that the injuries were no more than some fraudulent and spurious whiplash injury claim, is a serious libel by Aluminium Shuffler.
As for the cabin crew using the incident to embarrass a management pilot, does seem rather far fetched. BA pilots are more than capable of embarrassing themselves, as the written off 747 in JNB is testament to.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 27th May 2014 at 22:44. Reason: G-BNLL
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damn...sorry, but one of the worst threads on this site...
It is very easy to get the data from the ac.
Hard landings happen and bad landings happen, but a hard landing is not necessarily a bad landing...
apologizing for the landing...well, perhaps that is just the British way.
It is very easy to get the data from the ac.
Hard landings happen and bad landings happen, but a hard landing is not necessarily a bad landing...
apologizing for the landing...well, perhaps that is just the British way.
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Ham Phisted in post 44 alludes to the "work ethic and culture of some work groups where the first port of call is to the union". Again another serious libel.
HP also states that " a Heavy Landing Check only needs to be raised if in the opinion of the Captain, or there is an ACMS printout". Clearly the opinion of a Captain is unreliable and even a Heavy Landing Check down route may not determine any structural damage, for instance to the keel.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501899.pdf
HP also states that " a Heavy Landing Check only needs to be raised if in the opinion of the Captain, or there is an ACMS printout". Clearly the opinion of a Captain is unreliable and even a Heavy Landing Check down route may not determine any structural damage, for instance to the keel.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501899.pdf
Controversial, moi?
Clearly the opinion of a Captain is unreliable and even a Heavy Landing Check down route may not determine any structural damage, for instance to the keel.
I am not sure what your point is.
Ham Phisted in post 44 alludes to the "work ethic and culture of some work groups where the first port of call is to the union". Again another serious libel.