Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Honestly there have been some really bizarre and batty posts here. Many of the writers have knowledge of the area, some fly the 777. Some have experience of the waters and even recovery methods. On the flip side we have many, many posts from guys that have little knowledge or experience.
One thing we all have in common, - none of us has any idea what happened to the aircraft. We have an interest, most have theories, and without exception we are all awaiting the next step.
How can it possibly take days to find a machine that at the time was apparently flying along perfectly normally ?
Politics, cultures, defence secrecy, media reporting are all working against us in so many ways.
Given the craziness displayed in some of the previous posts I don't see extraterrestrial intervention, of some form, as the most stupid of suggestions.
There are people on this planet that actually do believe in some pretty bizarre stuff. That extends into the aviation industry as well.
Indeed what does happen if there is no trace found of this aircraft ?
One thing we all have in common, - none of us has any idea what happened to the aircraft. We have an interest, most have theories, and without exception we are all awaiting the next step.
How can it possibly take days to find a machine that at the time was apparently flying along perfectly normally ?
Politics, cultures, defence secrecy, media reporting are all working against us in so many ways.
Given the craziness displayed in some of the previous posts I don't see extraterrestrial intervention, of some form, as the most stupid of suggestions.
There are people on this planet that actually do believe in some pretty bizarre stuff. That extends into the aviation industry as well.
Indeed what does happen if there is no trace found of this aircraft ?
Last edited by baron_beeza; 10th Mar 2014 at 04:56.
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If the search has widened as far as the Straits of Malacca (as has been reported on reputable news sources) - does this mean that "saving face" has been happening at the official level for some time now, while they bought time, and that a LOT more has been known than has been reported, all along? Seems likely, given the cultural context ...
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Dai_Farr
regrettably the chances of a co-ordinated SAR effort are remote. Given the mutual suspicion verging on hostility and the asian mind-set of not going into a position where they might lose face, I reckon each country is searching it's "patch". Now the USA will arrive, along with Oz patrol planes and they'll probably co-ordinate between themselves, but just tell the locals what they're doing. Don't under-estimate the need to maintain face. I live in Asia and that aspect has to be understood well.
On another idea - is anyone looking on land ? If the plane continued northwards it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that it ended up in the Vietnam/Cambodian mountains.
regrettably the chances of a co-ordinated SAR effort are remote. Given the mutual suspicion verging on hostility and the asian mind-set of not going into a position where they might lose face, I reckon each country is searching it's "patch". Now the USA will arrive, along with Oz patrol planes and they'll probably co-ordinate between themselves, but just tell the locals what they're doing. Don't under-estimate the need to maintain face. I live in Asia and that aspect has to be understood well.
On another idea - is anyone looking on land ? If the plane continued northwards it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that it ended up in the Vietnam/Cambodian mountains.
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It will be found. Even if it takes months or years, requiring the full-court press of all capable countries, they will find it.
I'm of the same opinion that this plane went into the water relatively intact. The 777 is a large aeroplane, but in the context of the Gulf of Thailand, it is but a drop in the bucket...so to speak.
I'm of the same opinion that this plane went into the water relatively intact. The 777 is a large aeroplane, but in the context of the Gulf of Thailand, it is but a drop in the bucket...so to speak.
Reward for Turning in Debris
Given the large number of low income folks on the water, distributing multi-lingual leaflets promising rewards for any found debris from the flight would get a lot of experienced folks looking for unusual flotsam.
The longer we go without turning up debris, the more other scenarios increase in probability.
You would think a high speed impact would produce waves that would get the attention of boats in the vicinity.
The longer we go without turning up debris, the more other scenarios increase in probability.
You would think a high speed impact would produce waves that would get the attention of boats in the vicinity.
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Malaysia's state news agency quoted Home Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi as saying the passengers using the stolen European passports were of Asian appearance, and criticizing border officials who let them through.
I know a number of people from Asian backgrounds, particularly places like the Philippines, India and Sri Lanka, with names that may be construed as French, Spanish or even British, and who are citizens of European or other western countries. Conversely, Oriental and Indian sounding names (particularly female) are now gaining popularity in the west.
Do we really want to add another layer of complexity to airport security by necessitating that anyone who has a name that does not "match" their appearance, in the security officer's opinion, be singled out for greater scrutiny?!
Perhaps, it's time all countries expend the resources required to ensure better co-ordination with Interpol databases, which in this case had flagged both travel documents as stolen shortly after they were reported missing.
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In the same vein, IF the plane had turned around, would that mean it's possible the Malaysian authorities are the sole holders of radar/tracking information? I haven't the know-how to track the very technical radar/tracking etc discussions, but if the garnering of that information is "owned back home" in "at home" airspace, perhaps some form of official face-saving might go some way to explaining this "disappearance", and they are bent on having a full explanation when they declare the facts? Remember, there are very fraught stakeholdings here.
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Would Malaysian government officials be willing to admit that (a) KLIA security had been compromised (allowing potential weapons of terror on board) and/or (b) the plane had been diverted somewhere (and potentially crashed there or en route)?
The repeated suggestions of a "turn" on radar, a sudden drop, a supposed intent to return towards land, and now the business of searching the Strait of Malacca are leading me to think Malay authorities have a different idea of where the plane was headed than we have been led to believe.
Either that, or they are drawing at straws as much as we are.
The repeated suggestions of a "turn" on radar, a sudden drop, a supposed intent to return towards land, and now the business of searching the Strait of Malacca are leading me to think Malay authorities have a different idea of where the plane was headed than we have been led to believe.
Either that, or they are drawing at straws as much as we are.
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SAR question
Question about this type of multi-national search effort at sea. Dai Farr points out the coordination challenges. Can anyone describe antecedent examples? In other words, where SAR at sea consisted of several nations not aligned or in synch, participating in a large-area search? Realizing the AF 447 search might be a prior instance, but if so, did it entail such a divergence of nations? And it did not include an assertion of airspace control rights such as PRC has asserted in some regions of South China Sea?
I'd like to think that a fleet CVN of the U.S. Navy could oversee and execute such a search, with or without deployment of aviation and surface assets of other countries, but that thought might tend to be off-topic. Even if popular below decks.
I'd like to think that a fleet CVN of the U.S. Navy could oversee and execute such a search, with or without deployment of aviation and surface assets of other countries, but that thought might tend to be off-topic. Even if popular below decks.
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You would think a high speed impact would produce waves that would get the attention of boats in the vicinity.
The multilingual reward offer idea is great
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So the secretary general of interpol is claiming a direct connection between the two passengers and the cause of the tragedy?
Stolen passports make their way onto the database within hours of being reported stolen - but too many countries are just plain lackadaisical about implementing tighter passport security.
It will take another major disaster for tighter passport controls to be implemented in the Asian countries where lackadaisical attitudes, corruption and personal fiefdoms rule.
@Dai Farr - No, there is no over-arching central command for SAR in a search like this. The reasons being - we're talking a couple of different countries jurisdictions, several different military heirarchies controlling their military equipment, multiple language problems, and a rush to show who can produce the best SAR results.
My money is on the Vietnamese Navys near-new DHC-6-400 Twin Otters producing rapid results today. These aircraft were purchased specifically for maritime patrol and maritime SAR.
https://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpre...-vietnam-navy/
Last edited by onetrack; 10th Mar 2014 at 03:07. Reason: sp ...
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The multilingual reward offer idea is great
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A imm officer sitting at his/her booth stamping passports in routine 8/9hr shifts will not have enough wherewithal and gumption to flag Asians travelling with European sounding names.
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Bernama TV Report
Just seen on Bernama News, apparently 2 fisherman who were out in the water near the area of concern had seen a low flying aircraft 'below the clouds'.
might turn out to be nothing.
might turn out to be nothing.
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Working together
It must be interesting at sea with the RMN, RSN and RTN trying to work together. The animosity runs deep from a cultural point of view - 'face' is VERY important. I ran the sea-going side of the RSN 71-73 and had a mixture of Chinese, Malay, Indian and Thai crews. Huge competition especially with the RMN. One has to question as to why a country with no international waters has a submarine fleet. Answer - simply to keep up with the neighbours.
From experience the Malaysians are not telling the whole story - they hate being wrong - and the witch hunt regarding the passport debacle will have already started.
From experience the Malaysians are not telling the whole story - they hate being wrong - and the witch hunt regarding the passport debacle will have already started.
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Interesting responses from onetrack and Stanley11 here:
onetrack:
and
Stanley11:
If a global UN Search and Rescue organisation were considered unpalatable, might REGIONAL SAR Coordination Centres, each with the authority to control assets from member's forces/emergency services be a better (less sensitive) option than an all-out UN umbrella organisation?
Might UN control of such centres help in the international political arena whilst giving smaller nations a feeling of autonomy at least on a regional level?
Look, joining a "club" is never easy - look at the EU!!!!! Look also at the struggles in and around the former Soviet Union. But human disasters, at least in times of (relative) peace have at least a tacit desire to pull people out of the deep brown sticky stuff. Might such an organisation help in the future?
If, in doing what we have always done, we shouldn't be too surprised that we get what we always got! Change is needed.
onetrack:
No, there is no over-arching central command for SAR in a search like this. The reasons being - we're talking a couple of different countries jurisdictions, several different military heirarchies controlling their military equipment, multiple language problems, and a rush to show who can produce the best SAR results.
My money is on the Vietnamese Navys near-new DHC-6-400 Twin Otters producing rapid results today. These aircraft were purchased specifically for maritime patrol and maritime SAR.
My money is on the Vietnamese Navys near-new DHC-6-400 Twin Otters producing rapid results today. These aircraft were purchased specifically for maritime patrol and maritime SAR.
Stanley11:
Politics in this area is indeed complex but typically the Armed Forces work very well at the ground/tactical level. Multinational search and rescue efforts happens quite regularly around here due to natural disasters.
Might UN control of such centres help in the international political arena whilst giving smaller nations a feeling of autonomy at least on a regional level?
Look, joining a "club" is never easy - look at the EU!!!!! Look also at the struggles in and around the former Soviet Union. But human disasters, at least in times of (relative) peace have at least a tacit desire to pull people out of the deep brown sticky stuff. Might such an organisation help in the future?
If, in doing what we have always done, we shouldn't be too surprised that we get what we always got! Change is needed.
Last edited by Dai_Farr; 10th Mar 2014 at 03:19. Reason: Extra content
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I worked and lived in BKK for a while.
Thaisky. Skyeye, Phuket Air Etc.
Tristar and 747.
Was always known and quite common that you should always secure your passport in the hotel apartment safe.
Well know they will take and sell on the black market.
Tourist maybe not as much aware , but working there we know.
Pain in the ass when you have to fly but safer this way.
Not saying in anyway that some one took these that was brought back to a hotel room.
But it happens often.
Really hoping that the bad ones did not take advantage of this.
Time will tell.
As of now all speculation here.
What is known as all of us pilots are aware of this happened fast and was devastating.
But we all know and suspect the bad ones and what they did before.
Yes they are all over Asia also.
Even the best consulates one are now saying criminal act probably.
Sulley etc.
Hope all this is proven wrong soon for all our flying ones sake.
But is starting to smell like a rat.
Thaisky. Skyeye, Phuket Air Etc.
Tristar and 747.
Was always known and quite common that you should always secure your passport in the hotel apartment safe.
Well know they will take and sell on the black market.
Tourist maybe not as much aware , but working there we know.
Pain in the ass when you have to fly but safer this way.
Not saying in anyway that some one took these that was brought back to a hotel room.
But it happens often.
Really hoping that the bad ones did not take advantage of this.
Time will tell.
As of now all speculation here.
What is known as all of us pilots are aware of this happened fast and was devastating.
But we all know and suspect the bad ones and what they did before.
Yes they are all over Asia also.
Even the best consulates one are now saying criminal act probably.
Sulley etc.
Hope all this is proven wrong soon for all our flying ones sake.
But is starting to smell like a rat.
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RE HARMONIC VIBRATIONS
mseyfang POSTULATED that perhaps some sort of flutter issue may have led to instant disintegration.
Theoretically possible- but not probable.
Flutter testing is standard in the industry, and FBW can automatically reduce such possibilities.
mseyfang POSTULATED that perhaps some sort of flutter issue may have led to instant disintegration.
Theoretically possible- but not probable.
Flutter testing is standard in the industry, and FBW can automatically reduce such possibilities.
If anyone wants to learn more about Boeing's activity in this area on all of its jet airliner models, . It is a well written history of flight testing of B47, B52, 367-80, 707, 727, 737, 747, 757, & 767 aircraft. The T7 had similar testing. It also discusses flight test anomalies that have not been widely published, such as the deep stall of the T-tail 727, asymmetric and unintended slat deployment on the 737 at speed above Vmo, and another leading edge surprise on the 767. If you understand what the aircraft you fly have been through before you get in them, you will know that MH370 did not break up inflight without some extraneous catastrophic event. The anomalies were addressed with design fixes prior to their being placed in airline operation.
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There are some good people but they are stymied by complicated racial politics and a culture of deference and venial political maneuvering.