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Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

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Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport

Old 29th Nov 2013, 03:56
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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We had a captain I flew with but not on this flight make an incredibly stupid approach into SNA in the 80's who destroyed a B737 because he refused a go around but since we had a union he was made an FO for a year because of the union. He was a lousy FO too. I flew in the jump seat and he was totally useless. Unions are great but sometimes they protect people that should be shown the door to leave.
Might it have been this incident?
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 08:07
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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'At the risk of throwing the cat among the pigeons, I can't help but wonder if the recent posts would be as supportive if Boeing had contracted the delivery to, say, a South Korean operator... '


No cat, no pigeons, when you don't kill people it makes a world of difference, this was an innocent mistake.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 08:35
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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First HONEST MISTAKE then INNOCENT MISTAKE
Lets wind up !
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 09:02
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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It is a sad but consistent trend - if an American crew cock up, it's an innocent mistake and invariably a combination of external mitigating factors with the crew to be sympathised with, but if anyone else makes a mistake they're branded as incompetent, dangerous and a scourge.

The US have as much of a cultural issue when flying as any other region, and just like any other region, most of their pilots are probably just fine, with only a minority suffering a stereo-typed fault. In the case of of the far east and increasingly in the EU, there is an over reliance on avionics. In the US, there is an abundance of over-confidence and gashness, and looking at the amount of landing incidents following visual approaches or long visual segments after instrument approaches demonstrates it well.

Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 11:10
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Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.
The Atlas crew managed to put it on a runway, something that the Asiana crew, sadly, did not.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 11:35
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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.... and in one sentence Crabman reinforces Aluminium shuffler's point.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 12:19
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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No injuries, no damage, but a great deal of embarrassment all round. This sort of thing has happened before and will no doubt occur again. The case given below has its similarities, but the guy in question did actually make it to the correct airport.
AAIB Aircraft Accident Report 3/94 - Boeing 737-2Y5A, 9H-ABA, London Gatwick, 20 Oct 1993

I'm surprised the same thing hasn't happened at Mahon. Two airfields more or less side by side.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 13:08
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Amazing...comparing asiana and the dreamlifter.

amazing not noticing the difference in airports.


amazing not noticing the fact that the dreamlifter could be used again without major mx and the asiana was totaled.

yes, the dreamlifter crew made some big mistakes


but the asiana crew made the costliest in terms of death, hundreds of injuries, and property.

In previous posts I mentioned that there were only three airports in the USA that I would feel comfortable doing purely visual (no electronic aids) approaches and I included San Francisco.

I wouldn't have trusted just my eyes for Wichita, yes.

But the asiana crew and its mistakes is beyond just a few feet, it is gross incompetence in airmanship (keeping the plane flying).


the atlas crew made a navigational mistake of a high order, but no where near the asiana crew.

comparing the two is nuts.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 13:30
  #269 (permalink)  
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Spooky 2:


I believe that ATLAS has been an ALPA carrier for some time now and I see no reason that these guys should get fired or even demoted. Sim check and what ever the FAA has in mind will be more than adequate assuming there are not other problems hiding in their folders.

Certainly don't recall TWA firing the Capt that landed his 707 at the wrong airport in Ohio many years ago.

Because I was working there at the time I remember that case well. He was sent back to the F/O seat for 18 months followed by a tough upgrade back to captain training situation. But, after the 18 months he made it fine.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 13:42
  #270 (permalink)  
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Aluminium shuffler:


Now, given that so many Yanks lambasted the Asiana crew for being a few feet too low to get away with it, how can so many of the same group defend a crew that landed miles out of position? Just because they were lucky enough not to have caused any deaths does not excuse the serious lack of airmanship in this case. They were luckier, not better.
I lambast both crews. I also lambast the KAL 801 crash at Guam. And, I lambast the KAL 747 that was lost at LAX on a visual flying a base leg at 500 feet, agl, and when turning a panic final didn't roll wings level until the last seconds.


I participated in the KAL 801 hearing. Based on what I saw and heard from KAL management there I was not impressed.


The Asiana crash at SFO was far worse that what the Atlas crew did and what they did was inexcusable.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 16:17
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Since Asiana has been compared to Atlas so much by those looking to bash Americans (yes, true enough), my perspective is that it is much more egregious to not focus on and maintain airspeed during an approach (and especially a visual) than landing at the wrong airport. The magenta kids screwed up, and appropriate measured are warranted. Which airplane would you rather be in?

I taught the Asians for enough years to spot certain trends that easily resulted in stereotyping. I also had some great ones. There were Americans (and other nationalities) who shouldn't go near the airport other than to be SLF. Given that, I still feel more comfortable with a certain type of pilot up front. Racist or realist? Let the bashing begin. I am an American, so have at it.

Atlas provided the opportunity for some to poke the stick at the Yanks once again. Everytime I got together at a pub, or elswhere, with co-workers or newly-met "friends", the passtime of Yank-bashing by the Brits would eventually surface. Even an ex-mother-in-law couldn't resist by bashing her own Yank husband she so aggressively pursued. (Wait for it...yep there it is.) We need beating-a-dead-horse icon.

You guys are really likeable except for that. You really need to get over whatever it is that perpetuates the trend. Can't we all just get along?
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 16:30
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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Surely, if you're not where you think you are, then you're automatically a hazard to anyone not expecting you? Suppose there'd been a light aircraft on the runway? It's not just a "navigational" error.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 17:56
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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What if the the wing had fallen off, what if the Captain had a hear attack. What if enough and you can get the crew into any situation you want, none of which would be accurate.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 18:05
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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"...but the asiana crew made the costliest in terms of death, hundreds of injuries, and property"

The 747 wrong airport landing did not cost as much as the Asiana accident but luck was on their side.

The 747 crew were lucky they didnt blast into the WRONG traffic pattern and collide with another aircraft or run off the SHORT runway into houses.

Dont judge the level of oversight based upon the end result alone.

They screwed up big time and it could have been a lot worse.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 18:34
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Desert185
Since Asiana has been compared to Atlas so much by those looking to bash Americans (yes, true enough)
Whoa there, D - that's certainly not what I was getting at. You know me - I think reflexively bashing any person or group of people on the basis of arbitrary generalisations (e.g. nationality, occupation, age) is counter-productive and pointless.

If you look at my post above, I didn't mention the nationality of the Atlas crew at all - because I'm well aware that the attitude to some Asian carriers comes from across the Western contingent, not just USians.

My perspective is that it is much more egregious to not focus on and maintain airspeed during an approach (and especially a visual) than landing at the wrong airport.
Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, any deviation in position from where you're supposed to be has the potential to be dangerous - in fact very dangerous if the "wrong" airport is in use!


I taught the Asians for enough years to spot certain trends that easily resulted in stereotyping. I also had some great ones. There were Americans (and other nationalities) who shouldn't go near the airport other than to be SLF.
That may be so, but to be a good teacher one has to resist the urge to stereotype - at least on a professional level.

How long ago were you doing TRE out East, out of interest?

Atlas provided the opportunity for some to poke the stick at the Yanks once again.
Really? I'm seeing the odd facepalm towards the crew, but their nationality hasn't come into the discussion that I can see - other than a higher-than-usual level of "no harm, no foul" posts.

(this bit is off-topic, my apologies to the mods...)

Everytime I got together at a pub, or elswhere, with co-workers or newly-met "friends", the passtime of Yank-bashing by the Brits would eventually surface. Even an ex-mother-in-law couldn't resist by bashing her own Yank husband she so aggressively pursued. (Wait for it...yep there it is.) We need beating-a-dead-horse icon.
Let's be fair - there's a big difference between personal ribbing amongst friends, family and colleagues during leisure time versus casting aspersions on strangers' professional capability on the basis of nationality!

You guys are really likeable except for that. You really need to get over whatever it is that perpetuates the trend. Can't we all just get along?
But we do get along! You can't tell me it's all one-way traffic with a straight face, surely. I think the odd friendly insult should be as accepted as we accept, for example, consistently being the bad guys in Hollywood movies.

One trait that I hope gives us some leeway is that a lot of Brits take the p*ss out of ourselves as much as, if not more than, we do anyone else!

Obviously you get the odd spat that is actually mean-spirited and when that happens, this particular limey is troubled no matter which side of the pond it's coming from. Sadly, genuine bigotry is not constrained by geography.

Last edited by DozyWannabe; 29th Nov 2013 at 18:49.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 20:37
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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I am amazed at the turn of events...comparing a Crash that Killed people, injured hundreds more, destroyed an airplane, closed an airport, all because the pilots couldn't maintain a safe airspeed

and

two pilots landing at the wrong airfield.

yes, there could have been a little plane, but hopefully the little plane would have had its lights on and the big plane's crew would have seen it and gone around.

or maybe tracon would have warned both planes if there had been a little plane at the ''wrong'' airport.


Maybe the Atlas crew will fly again and never land at the wrong airport again.

But the Asiana crew...they shouldn't be allowed near another airplane.


And go ahead and bash us yanks. Make all the fun of us you would like to .


there are many maybes in aviation. but the hard facts are this...one plane crashed, another went to the wrong airport. IF i had to choose the seat I would rather be in, it would have been the dreamlifter...I could have lived it down...but killing innocents, ruining lives and not being able to maintain Vref plus five...I couldn't have lived that done or lived with it.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 21:54
  #277 (permalink)  
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well said flarepilot!
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 22:25
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If I had to choose, I wouldn't have got in either. Some of you really don't get this - both incidents are indicative of serious human factors failure (note, I haven't said 'human failure'). Both occurrences, together with the Southwestern wheelbarrow landing and the UPS 'land short' at Birmingham require extremely thorough investigation and lesson identification. To trivialise an event just because no puppies were hurt flies in the face of every contemporary flight safety principle.

The aim should be to reduce the risk of another Asiana, UPS, Dreamlifter and Southwestern.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 22:40
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"...require extremely thorough investigation and lesson identification."

Exactly.
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Old 29th Nov 2013, 23:46
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dear cows

its southwest, not southwestern

must be a human failure
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