Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport
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check airman
I do check things like rotating beacons, runway numbers (on takeoff and landing) and I have had the tower or pilot controlled lighting adjust lights for identification or other reasons.
the question is why don't you?
making use of other electronic aids is quite useful too.
I do check things like rotating beacons, runway numbers (on takeoff and landing) and I have had the tower or pilot controlled lighting adjust lights for identification or other reasons.
the question is why don't you?
making use of other electronic aids is quite useful too.
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Sometimes we see what we are expecting to see and do not ask questions.
Approach handed them over to tower, they broke cloud and saw runway lights and a PAPI.
Sometimes we see what we want to see.
Was the correct runway maybe obscured by cloud ?
Approach handed them over to tower, they broke cloud and saw runway lights and a PAPI.
Sometimes we see what we want to see.
Was the correct runway maybe obscured by cloud ?
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How they missed the clue that there were two runways at their destination amazes me... The clue was in the description.... 19L i.e. there was a 19R as well.
Their GPS should have shown there to be either one or two runways, but I suppose they just zoomed into the first runway that came into view on their screens.
The 6 degrees difference in runway orientation was not so much of a clue...
Their GPS should have shown there to be either one or two runways, but I suppose they just zoomed into the first runway that came into view on their screens.
The 6 degrees difference in runway orientation was not so much of a clue...
missed the clue that there were two runways at their destination
m0567/13 notamr m0556/13
q) /qmrlc
a) kiab
b) 201309241529
c) 201312152359
e) runway 01l/19r closed. All approaches to runway
01l/19r unavailable.
q) /qmrlc
a) kiab
b) 201309241529
c) 201312152359
e) runway 01l/19r closed. All approaches to runway
01l/19r unavailable.
And let's expand the list of 'obvious' clues they should not have missed:
- before Mc C 19's you overfly the whole E. suburb; at Jabara 18 it's farmland
- Jabara has MALSR approach lights i.o. the ALSF-1 they should look for.
- the massive apron just to the left of the threshold at Mc C.
- at least one KC-135 should be spotted at Mc C.
- any locals can complement this list with Burger Kings to be spotted before touching down?
Last edited by Jetdriver; 24th Nov 2013 at 12:17.
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All of your extra clues depend on the crew being familiar with their destination.
They saw what they wanted to see and that was good enough after a long and tiring flight.
This is a common phenomenon - for example how many motorcyclists have been killed by drivers who looked to see if a car was coming before pulling out. (thousands).
We are all human and we make the usual human errors, this is partly due to the way our brains work.
They saw what they wanted to see and that was good enough after a long and tiring flight.
This is a common phenomenon - for example how many motorcyclists have been killed by drivers who looked to see if a car was coming before pulling out. (thousands).
We are all human and we make the usual human errors, this is partly due to the way our brains work.
Jeez, is this still going on? It's now history. The a/c has subsequently departed. Let's move on. ---------------- not until the discovery or other tv co makes the documentary ( with added hype and dramatizations )
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"there but for the grace of.............."
Wake up 0630am, kids getting ready for school, work in yard all morning, around 3pm take nap, 4pm neighbor gets leaf blower going, nap ends, oh well, it's only a 3hrs flight, 7pm dinner with family, 8pm start packing, shower, etc, 10pm say good byes to family and leave for the 90 mins+ drive to JFK, get to ops around midnite, usual stuff, then wait for ride to the jet, 2am takeoff, finally, 6th cup of coffee, 2hrs. and 6 more cups later brief for arrival, hey, no sweat, hotel bed is less than 90 mins away, wow look to our left and see runway, final check, line up on runway, hmmm?? oh well, lights must be off on ramp, Gov. closed again, 'nice landing Capt.' wow auto brakes off, push those pedals! WTF??? Typical night for "freight dogs" 'this is the life you have chosen!'
Wake up 0630am, kids getting ready for school, work in yard all morning, around 3pm take nap, 4pm neighbor gets leaf blower going, nap ends, oh well, it's only a 3hrs flight, 7pm dinner with family, 8pm start packing, shower, etc, 10pm say good byes to family and leave for the 90 mins+ drive to JFK, get to ops around midnite, usual stuff, then wait for ride to the jet, 2am takeoff, finally, 6th cup of coffee, 2hrs. and 6 more cups later brief for arrival, hey, no sweat, hotel bed is less than 90 mins away, wow look to our left and see runway, final check, line up on runway, hmmm?? oh well, lights must be off on ramp, Gov. closed again, 'nice landing Capt.' wow auto brakes off, push those pedals! WTF??? Typical night for "freight dogs" 'this is the life you have chosen!'
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Check Airman:
It's not either, or. The RNAV IAP in question, correctly hand-flown without any automatics would have resulted in landing at the correct airport on the correct runway.
We can't win, can we? Leave the AP on, and we're labelled as children of the magenta. Now we have a crew that seemed to have disconnected the automatics, and somebody suggests that they should have left the AP on longer...
So would you prefer your crew watch the AP crash the airplane, or have your crew screw up in an attempt to maintain their skills? From one extreme to the next...
So would you prefer your crew watch the AP crash the airplane, or have your crew screw up in an attempt to maintain their skills? From one extreme to the next...
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Aterpster,
I agree with you. A properly flown rnav approach would not have led to this. I was just pointing out that the PF was probably trying to keep his handling skills sharp when this happened.
I agree with you. A properly flown rnav approach would not have led to this. I was just pointing out that the PF was probably trying to keep his handling skills sharp when this happened.
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Alternate?
Can't help but wonder if KBEC was mentioned as an alternate on the recovery flight's flight plan out of Jabara. Just in case of 
Can't help but feel sorry for the guys that landed the flying Quasimodo at Jabara. Imagine their feelings once it sunk in they landed a bit short...
Can't help but feel sorry for the guys that landed the flying Quasimodo at Jabara. Imagine their feelings once it sunk in they landed a bit short...
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One airport worker was quoted as saying an airplane landed 5 minutes before the dreamlifter at Jabara due to which PCL was still on and probably led them to this.
for those talking about the beacon, how comfortable would you be waiting to count the flashes in a 744 while on final for a brightly lit runway? I know waiting for the white white green (and another round for confirmation) seems like an eternity in my 152.
for those talking about the beacon, how comfortable would you be waiting to count the flashes in a 744 while on final for a brightly lit runway? I know waiting for the white white green (and another round for confirmation) seems like an eternity in my 152.
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india bravo
you might want to check the AIM for the time it takes to make the flashes.
IF you have properly tuned, and identified an ILS or LDA or SDF or VOR or used any of the other magic nav systems and are navigating via radio nav that's fine, you don't have to count the flashes.
But if you are just looking out the window, and not exactly following radio or rnav or satnav, you better count the flashes.
I grew up flying in an area with multiple airports...I mean 11 airports within 25 nm. You better know where you are and where you are about to land.
you might want to check the AIM for the time it takes to make the flashes.
IF you have properly tuned, and identified an ILS or LDA or SDF or VOR or used any of the other magic nav systems and are navigating via radio nav that's fine, you don't have to count the flashes.
But if you are just looking out the window, and not exactly following radio or rnav or satnav, you better count the flashes.
I grew up flying in an area with multiple airports...I mean 11 airports within 25 nm. You better know where you are and where you are about to land.
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why no winglets on Dreamlifter
The dreamlifter does up to 11 hour legs. Italy to Witchita , Seattle to Japan , ect. The reason it does not have winglets ( nice catch ) , is that when the tail is fully open for loading , it goes out over the wing , so better to have none than one.
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Tail only opens around 90* and isn't long enough to reach the wingtip. I've seen it open several times.
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The winglets were removed due to a flutter issue discovered during post mod flight test.
Although details remain scarce, Boeing says the test team is tackling vibration issues that have led to the removal of the winglets from the first Dreamlifter test aircraft (RT876). Flutter tests, provisionally expected to have been completed by now, were still under way as of 7 December.
SMOC is correct - the winglets were removed during the LCF flight tests due to flutter vibrations. They originally tried to blame the vibrations on the engines - even replaced one even though we were telling them engine was operating just fine.
Winglets on the 747-400 don't really help much anyway - so no great loss (they're basically too small). The raked wing tips (777-300ER/787/747-8) work far better.
Winglets on the 747-400 don't really help much anyway - so no great loss (they're basically too small). The raked wing tips (777-300ER/787/747-8) work far better.
Olasek -
flarepilot - a lot of poppycock.
How many hours of IFR do you have in your logbook because your posts are full of babble that clearly shows some skin-deep knowledge (perhaps from this forum) and nothing more.
ATC controllers are not in fault in this case or in any other similar case when pilot managed to screw up and landed at the wrong airport, no ATC procedures were violated. There was probably clear night, pilot declared runway in sight and he got his clearance, if KIAB was a busy place - the story could have been different with controllers scrambling to provide separation and someone would have noticed something was amiss.
flarepilot - a lot of poppycock.
How many hours of IFR do you have in your logbook because your posts are full of babble that clearly shows some skin-deep knowledge (perhaps from this forum) and nothing more.
ATC controllers are not in fault in this case or in any other similar case when pilot managed to screw up and landed at the wrong airport, no ATC procedures were violated. There was probably clear night, pilot declared runway in sight and he got his clearance, if KIAB was a busy place - the story could have been different with controllers scrambling to provide separation and someone would have noticed something was amiss.
Olasek,
You are a GA pilot who flies a 172. Yet you continue to harangue and argue about subjects that you have no direct experience with.
Your continuous squealing over an inconsequential 170 foot rounding error in the Asiana 777 thread - yet you've never flown the approach, never flown a turbine powered aircraft and the closest you've come to SFO is living in Oakland. Your assertion in this thread that no Boeing aircraft has an automated go around capability ...... The list continues.
The fact that I can remember your screen name is not a positive sign. Since it seems to be constantly connected to you arguing about things that you have little experience with. At the moment you're stridently arguing with a Captain at a major US airline; He's probably familiar with a visual approach from an Instrument procedure. Yes, we can all get it wrong, but in this case he's correct
I absolutely welcome any contribution from any level of pilot. However, perhaps some moderation of your "rigorous" (to quote you) debate would be in order.