NTSB update on Asiana 214
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Maybe asking the locals if they are happy with the control design and the training would be an interesting and positive first step in cultural awareness 
One of the impression I get from posts here, especially critique of Airbus is that pilots are presented with controls and procedures that are set in stone tablets dropped from the sky.
Re. safety culture, ask yourselves whether you would prefer to be SLF on a Russian Soyouz, or on board a US Space Shuttle? Was that an issue of technology or of culture?
One of the impression I get from posts here, especially critique of Airbus is that pilots are presented with controls and procedures that are set in stone tablets dropped from the sky.
Re. safety culture, ask yourselves whether you would prefer to be SLF on a Russian Soyouz, or on board a US Space Shuttle? Was that an issue of technology or of culture?
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I agree with JO and the responding posts.
People’s basic personalities are the same everywhere, they do not change depending on the race whether it is Western, Asian or Negro. But cultures are different, cultures are different depending on their history. The history influences the person’s education from the time he is born which results in his different ways of doing things, different importance’s etc. This is not saying any of these differences are right or wrong, they are just different. Any resolution of a difficulty resulting from a differing cultural aspect is generally simple to resolve. Respect the differences, be polite, listen, be interested, try to understand, learn.
I think “saving face” is not particularly understood. Ultimately it is not a cultural issue, it comes from a person’s basic personality but it is exasperated by cultural differences. Perhaps it comes from an underlying self doubt, resulting in a slight embarrassment that the Korean culture is presently behind the West from a technological perspective. This is not helped by a Western tendency to pontificate.
From my experience the Korean people are very smart and as a culture they are very willing to learn. With good training based on respect and understanding, any backwardness in their safety culture I am sure will disappear over a short time.
People’s basic personalities are the same everywhere, they do not change depending on the race whether it is Western, Asian or Negro. But cultures are different, cultures are different depending on their history. The history influences the person’s education from the time he is born which results in his different ways of doing things, different importance’s etc. This is not saying any of these differences are right or wrong, they are just different. Any resolution of a difficulty resulting from a differing cultural aspect is generally simple to resolve. Respect the differences, be polite, listen, be interested, try to understand, learn.
I think “saving face” is not particularly understood. Ultimately it is not a cultural issue, it comes from a person’s basic personality but it is exasperated by cultural differences. Perhaps it comes from an underlying self doubt, resulting in a slight embarrassment that the Korean culture is presently behind the West from a technological perspective. This is not helped by a Western tendency to pontificate.
From my experience the Korean people are very smart and as a culture they are very willing to learn. With good training based on respect and understanding, any backwardness in their safety culture I am sure will disappear over a short time.
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With good training based on respect and understanding, any backwardness in their safety culture I am sure will disappear over a short time.
For A37575:
Is this hard wired obedience element of their culture the reason why Koreans are so damned good at competitive video games? I'll point to Starcraft, Starcraft II, and League of Legends as three competitive video games (for money, as in 1 million split five ways for the winning team in the LoL championships this past year) played internationally where the Koreans are the acknowledged best (as USA has been in basketball for ages). My son explained to me how, during this past year, it was the better Korean teams that established a better strategy model that changed how the game is played. Since it is played on 5 man teams, there's an element of CRM (teamwork, team role definition, and team contribution) involved there for success at the highest levels, just as in basketball.
Or is there something else?
Is it that there is a training system that works for that particular kind of cognitive and motor skill combination that works so well in Korea? (Hmmm, cognitive and motor skill combination ... sounds a bit like flying, doesn't it?) Gee, developing a good team (CRM) is Well Within Korean cultural models. The money talks, the rest walks.
Gretchenfrage's point on the culture and cultural assumptions behind aircraft and system design are a point well made.
Look at the cultural assumption made in designing the A330, and the presupposition that no pilots will have the aircraft at 60 knots at altitude. (AoA signal clipped/filtered ... )
That pilots won't stall a passenger liner at 35,000 feet. This cultural assumption leads to how the testing and training are developed and funded. 228 dead ... no Koreans at the helm.
Is this hard wired obedience element of their culture the reason why Koreans are so damned good at competitive video games? I'll point to Starcraft, Starcraft II, and League of Legends as three competitive video games (for money, as in 1 million split five ways for the winning team in the LoL championships this past year) played internationally where the Koreans are the acknowledged best (as USA has been in basketball for ages). My son explained to me how, during this past year, it was the better Korean teams that established a better strategy model that changed how the game is played. Since it is played on 5 man teams, there's an element of CRM (teamwork, team role definition, and team contribution) involved there for success at the highest levels, just as in basketball.
Or is there something else?
Is it that there is a training system that works for that particular kind of cognitive and motor skill combination that works so well in Korea? (Hmmm, cognitive and motor skill combination ... sounds a bit like flying, doesn't it?) Gee, developing a good team (CRM) is Well Within Korean cultural models. The money talks, the rest walks.
Gretchenfrage's point on the culture and cultural assumptions behind aircraft and system design are a point well made.
Look at the cultural assumption made in designing the A330, and the presupposition that no pilots will have the aircraft at 60 knots at altitude. (AoA signal clipped/filtered ... )
That pilots won't stall a passenger liner at 35,000 feet. This cultural assumption leads to how the testing and training are developed and funded. 228 dead ... no Koreans at the helm.
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[EDIT : As I said in the 11th AF447 thread, I'd be very interested in seeing how all currently operating commercial airliners' sensory, control and warning systems behave when subjected to a flight profile that extreme - the problem is that no simulator can accurately replicate the conditions, and no test pilot in his right mind would risk flying that profile for real!]
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 21st Nov 2013 at 19:10.
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Therefore the joint objective of all airlines should be to bring the teams skills of playing video games to the airline world. I'll will suggest that the winning Korean team had a very flat command gradient. And if this attribute of a successful team can taken on board so to speak, then they'll be in a position to win in flying operations.
NTSB Hearing Regarding Asiana 214 Dec. 10-11
Investigative Hearing: Crash of Asiana Flight 214, San Francisco, CA, 7/6/2013
The National Transportation Safety Board is convening a 2-day investigative hearing to discuss the ongoing investigation into the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 and to gather additional factual information. The hearing, which will be held December 10-11, 2013, at the NTSB's Board Room and Conference Center in Washington, DC, will focus on pilot awareness in highly automated aircraft, emergency response, and cabin safety.
NTSB public events are also streamed live via webcast.
The National Transportation Safety Board is convening a 2-day investigative hearing to discuss the ongoing investigation into the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 and to gather additional factual information. The hearing, which will be held December 10-11, 2013, at the NTSB's Board Room and Conference Center in Washington, DC, will focus on pilot awareness in highly automated aircraft, emergency response, and cabin safety.
NTSB public events are also streamed live via webcast.
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@A37575
This comment almost made me fall out of my chair laughing. The opposite is closer to the truth. Even the previous Korean president commented that the Korean people were a noisy bunch, referring to the high number of noisy protests about various issues. In 1980s most of the population including Buddhist monks protested against the then ruling repressive dictatorship, forcing democratic reforms and freedom of speech. Every year farmers get on their trucks and tractors and take to the roads forcing major delays on the motorways in protest about something. In the streets of Seoul it is not uncommon to see bunch of people with a loud hailer protesting about the government or some conglomerate.
There has gotta be other reasons for this "safty culture" issue.
Blind obedience to authority
There has gotta be other reasons for this "safty culture" issue.
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Don’t Jump on hasty generalization.
Whenever I see some “proudly born in western culture” guys are so obsessed with finding cultural problem in this kind of accident. It just makes me wonder.
I am really curious what makes them so proud because his passport is just belong to one of the so called “western countries”
Do they really believe current cockpit culture is so different between western and non-western pilots?
I wonder how many guys (who pointed out cultural problem in OZ214) personally or actually know pilots of oz214.
Is there anybody who has ever met or flown together with those crews?
Is there anybody who can describe each OZ214 crew’s personality enough to pick ancient stubborn Asian attitudes in their everyday flight?
Somebody may be able to satisfy his “so proudly western born self-ego” by criticizing cultural problem, but he should realize that it just makes him ….looks like pervert who can’t be satisfied in his current status.
Don’t Jump on hasty generalization.
I have flown with many guys from many countries.
Each person has his own character.
Not all the western guys are reasonable, not all the asian guys authoritative.
Some of them are…some of them are not.
It is pity to see pointing finger on cultural problem whenever non-western pilot’s aircraft down in somewhere.
Can you blame Dreamlifter landing in wrong airport on cultural problem?
Don’t say it was different because Dreamlifter had no casualty.
More than a decade ago, bunch of Chinese student pilots made one municipal airport closed because they made touch and go with wrong frequency in adjacent airport.
It is easy to blame…..especially in online forum….but criticizing based on wild speculation doesn’t make any progress.
I am really curious what makes them so proud because his passport is just belong to one of the so called “western countries”
Do they really believe current cockpit culture is so different between western and non-western pilots?
I wonder how many guys (who pointed out cultural problem in OZ214) personally or actually know pilots of oz214.
Is there anybody who has ever met or flown together with those crews?
Is there anybody who can describe each OZ214 crew’s personality enough to pick ancient stubborn Asian attitudes in their everyday flight?
Somebody may be able to satisfy his “so proudly western born self-ego” by criticizing cultural problem, but he should realize that it just makes him ….looks like pervert who can’t be satisfied in his current status.
Don’t Jump on hasty generalization.
I have flown with many guys from many countries.
Each person has his own character.
Not all the western guys are reasonable, not all the asian guys authoritative.
Some of them are…some of them are not.
It is pity to see pointing finger on cultural problem whenever non-western pilot’s aircraft down in somewhere.
Can you blame Dreamlifter landing in wrong airport on cultural problem?
Don’t say it was different because Dreamlifter had no casualty.
More than a decade ago, bunch of Chinese student pilots made one municipal airport closed because they made touch and go with wrong frequency in adjacent airport.
It is easy to blame…..especially in online forum….but criticizing based on wild speculation doesn’t make any progress.
.............any backwardness in their safety culture I am sure will disappear over a short time.
They've been having aircraft accidents/incidents for quite awhile now.
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I can't wait to see how all the new Asian and sub-Continent MPLs make out in this 'brave new world' of fast tracking the much less experienced pilot onto a wide body flight deck. 
No sir.
This brazen P2F crowd have serious competition now.
Cultural issues be damned says I.
No siree, I can't wait.
No sir.
This brazen P2F crowd have serious competition now.
Cultural issues be damned says I.
No siree, I can't wait.
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One of these days I've got to compile a MTBC (Mean Time Before Carrr-runch) of aircraft of some various carriers. I have some preconceived idea of how they will rank, but hard data will tell the tale.
There is a cultural component and it should be raised, highlighted and, if possible, tackled.
"I read with interest Bob Owen's call for political correctness to ensure no 'racial and cultural slurs` are used in matters of flight safety (Flight International, 22-28 October). Such lofty ideals have no place in modern aviation where hard facts are valued more than sacred cows.
The harsh reality is that South Korea has an unenviable flight safety record, and to pretend otherwise would be to guarantee the perpetuation of such a tragic legacy. It is a harsh fact that some parts of the world have a significantly worse safety record than others and cultural factors are very significant in explaining why.
That fact is clearly very distasteful to Mr Owen but, to those more interested in truth than dogma, it is a vital piece of the jigsaw which explains so many of the unintended consequences of poor aviation practice. Here in the West, we have much to learn from other cultures. While we should never be complacent, when it comes to aviation safety we have much to offer the rest of the world.
Our safety record has been built up through the ruthless analysis of numerous tragic aviation accidents down the decades. We have wisely chosen to leave no stone unturned in the pursuit of safety. Any attempt to have no-go areas for air safety investigation for fear of offending a particular race or culture does a huge disservice to the travelling public and condemn thousands of innocent people to die unnecessarily in the future.
Would it not be the brave thing to do to admit that culture is an issue and just address it head-on? Those unwilling to learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat them."
Unquote.
The writer of this letter is to be applauded for what he has written and to Flight International, thank you for publishing it.
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Cool Guys,
You mention a few points, but fail to understand that the protests you mention were largely the masses following (blindly) a few leaders.
I lived and worked in Korea for 13 years (and married a Korean woman!), so trust me when I say there are CLEAR relationships between this accident (what I have read of it) and cultural 'values' in Korean society, including a lot of 'blindness'.
You mention a few points, but fail to understand that the protests you mention were largely the masses following (blindly) a few leaders.
I lived and worked in Korea for 13 years (and married a Korean woman!), so trust me when I say there are CLEAR relationships between this accident (what I have read of it) and cultural 'values' in Korean society, including a lot of 'blindness'.
Mean time before ...
@barit1 mentioned
This being the Internet someone has already done the job, more or less.
The web site is still up but the detailed crash rate page is now only available on the wayback machine. Maybe he got a letter?
I'll try the links but I may not get them to work since pprune often seems link-shy.
Airline accident ratings Has detailed stats - wayback machine 15 Jan 2013.
Airline accident ratings Current page, a bit less info.
Plane Crash Info.com Home page.
One of these days I've got to compile a MTBC (Mean Time Before Carrr-runch) of aircraft of some various carriers. I have some preconceived idea of how they will rank, but hard data will tell the tale.
The web site is still up but the detailed crash rate page is now only available on the wayback machine. Maybe he got a letter?
I'll try the links but I may not get them to work since pprune often seems link-shy.
Airline accident ratings Has detailed stats - wayback machine 15 Jan 2013.
Airline accident ratings Current page, a bit less info.
Plane Crash Info.com Home page.
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Teach Me,
I understand what you are saying. But it wasn’t “Blind obedience to authority” that “will not change, ever” as what @A37575 was indicating. We gotta analyse this issue a bit more accurately that that.
The article in Flight International that Centaurus posted pretty well hits the nail on the head.
I understand what you are saying. But it wasn’t “Blind obedience to authority” that “will not change, ever” as what @A37575 was indicating. We gotta analyse this issue a bit more accurately that that.
The article in Flight International that Centaurus posted pretty well hits the nail on the head.
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The FAA has recently released a thorough analysis of automation issues and flight path control. The link below goes to the FAA overview of the report and provides a link to the actual report in PDF format:
Fact Sheet ? Report on the Operational Use of Flight Path Management Systems
Fact Sheet ? Report on the Operational Use of Flight Path Management Systems
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Can someone translate the FLCH trap on the 777 to 747 terms? Is it the same system design?
In my understanding they leveled off with FLCH (A/T in HOLD), which would change to SPD / ALT mode, or would it not? Intercepting GS would give them SPD & G/S.
thanks..
In my understanding they leveled off with FLCH (A/T in HOLD), which would change to SPD / ALT mode, or would it not? Intercepting GS would give them SPD & G/S.
thanks..