Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
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Somewhere in the flurry of audio "meejah" reporting on this, I detected the phrase "there would be MORE fatigue-related accidents if the EASA proposals became the norm" or words to that effect.
Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
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"Just to say that there are also a fair amount of Pilots who are members of this " funny handshake" club..."
Once upon a time in a RAF long ago, we used to wonder how and why some particularly incompetent and noxious aviators managed to get promoted.
Then the same discussion would be heard amongst my civilian counterparts..........
Food for thought as the subject has now been aired? Maybe a new thread, but how long would it last before>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<I'm sorry, your're breaking up, we'll try and get back to you!
Once upon a time in a RAF long ago, we used to wonder how and why some particularly incompetent and noxious aviators managed to get promoted.
Then the same discussion would be heard amongst my civilian counterparts..........
Food for thought as the subject has now been aired? Maybe a new thread, but how long would it last before>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<I'm sorry, your're breaking up, we'll try and get back to you!
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Don't get me wrong - this legislation sounds like it was poorly conceived and assumes altogether far too much in terms of airlines sticking to the intended spirit of the legislation as opposed to using it as a performance target. But ultimately the group of pilots' unions must make a case for involvement in drafting a revised version of the legislation, as to do otherwise runs the risk of having it railroaded through anyway.
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Have just finished reading through Siim Kallas's Wiki profile - somebody please explain to me how this person is appropriately qualified in any way, shape, or form, to refute or even debate robust scientific evidence regarding human fatigue or performance factors on the flight deck.
His curriculum vitae shows no evidence of interest, history, expertise or qualification whatsoever in the safety issues upon which he is pontificating.
Clearly he is an experienced politician - I dare say, lobbyist - but since his current administrative position in "Transport" does not bestow upon him any special relevant credentials or scientific insight into his subject, you might just as soon get meaningful counterpoint by quoting my cat.
His curriculum vitae shows no evidence of interest, history, expertise or qualification whatsoever in the safety issues upon which he is pontificating.
Clearly he is an experienced politician - I dare say, lobbyist - but since his current administrative position in "Transport" does not bestow upon him any special relevant credentials or scientific insight into his subject, you might just as soon get meaningful counterpoint by quoting my cat.
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......and also shows extremely bad leadership, one who does not listen or communicate with people about such change would be a dictator.....
Seems like an ideal candidate for a good dose of CRM indoctrination.
Once again it is money/profit driving the show. In this time of so-called financial crisis (let's called it a common sense adjustment to attitude) the money men will always have the sway over the politicians. But I say again: just because the machines have increased their operating time without rest & re-fuelling does not mean the humans have done the same. If it was considered, some years ago, normal & reasonable for humans to operate 10-11hrs working days/nights, then just because an a/c can now fly for 15 hours it doesn't follow that the humans can stretch their natural endurance. And certainly not regularly over a short period. They will break down. If you over stress an a/c it will break or wear out faster. The humans are the same, except the breaking point is different for everyone and is an unknown unscientific quantity. The money men are guessing and the bowing scraping profit friendly politicians are too easily in agreement. Are the XAA's not supposed to be the guardians of the industry. Are they too swayed by bonuses and dosh? What other industries are going through this debate? What other groups of workers are being subjected to this assault on their lively-hood and life-styles. I suspect the medical profession has been subjected to something similar, but I doubt if there is any other transport, or safety related, industry that is under such stressful change. If there is then let's hear about it. If not, then why only aviation?
Seems like an ideal candidate for a good dose of CRM indoctrination.
Once again it is money/profit driving the show. In this time of so-called financial crisis (let's called it a common sense adjustment to attitude) the money men will always have the sway over the politicians. But I say again: just because the machines have increased their operating time without rest & re-fuelling does not mean the humans have done the same. If it was considered, some years ago, normal & reasonable for humans to operate 10-11hrs working days/nights, then just because an a/c can now fly for 15 hours it doesn't follow that the humans can stretch their natural endurance. And certainly not regularly over a short period. They will break down. If you over stress an a/c it will break or wear out faster. The humans are the same, except the breaking point is different for everyone and is an unknown unscientific quantity. The money men are guessing and the bowing scraping profit friendly politicians are too easily in agreement. Are the XAA's not supposed to be the guardians of the industry. Are they too swayed by bonuses and dosh? What other industries are going through this debate? What other groups of workers are being subjected to this assault on their lively-hood and life-styles. I suspect the medical profession has been subjected to something similar, but I doubt if there is any other transport, or safety related, industry that is under such stressful change. If there is then let's hear about it. If not, then why only aviation?
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They're trying to push through a vote on the 9th - debate on the 8th.
Email your MEPs (WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free) asking them to attend and to vote IAW the Transport Committee findings.
Email your MEPs (WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free) asking them to attend and to vote IAW the Transport Committee findings.
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Somewhere in the flurry of audio "meejah" reporting on this, I detected the phrase "there would be MORE fatigue-related accidents if the EASA proposals became the norm" or words to that effect.
Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
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Does anyone have a link to a database of "fatigue accidents", or any stats on the reports, which stress this as a significant contributory cause?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
Presumably those at the front of the battle have access/knowledge of such data?
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Fred.
That link of yours makes it so easy to send a letter to all the MEP's for your area. Just a few keystrokes and you can get your message across. A link for the Transport Committee stuff is here:
MPs publish follow up report on flight time limitations - News from Parliament - UK Parliament
It's a must read.
Remember to keep the letters short and sweet, to the point, and please - keep the emotion out of it.......
That link of yours makes it so easy to send a letter to all the MEP's for your area. Just a few keystrokes and you can get your message across. A link for the Transport Committee stuff is here:
MPs publish follow up report on flight time limitations - News from Parliament - UK Parliament
It's a must read.
Remember to keep the letters short and sweet, to the point, and please - keep the emotion out of it.......
Excellent advice. It's about what is safe, not about who is right or wrong. There is solid evidence to support tighter duty day requirements. Remind them of that. Remind them that complaints they get from industry are no different than complaints voiced by auto makers that tighter safety requirements cost money. People pay more for new cars today because we've mandated safety improvements like air bags, ABS and crumple zones. Those safety improvements were based on evidence.
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Golfsierrayankee
Perhaps the voyage report stating that he had not had suitable rest, written by the Captain before his Hermes aircraft G-ALDJ crashed at Blackbushe on 5th Nov 1956 may have influenced Parliament to introduce Flight Time Limitations in the U.K.
( I was required to have a medical if I exceeded 125 flying hours in a month. If fit, some said that I could do a further 125 hours...!)
Two Captains, two Flight Engineers, one First Officer, one Radio Officer and two Bunks were now required for a "Heavy Crew" who could, with Captain's discretion, be On Duty for 24 hours, but must be Scheduled for 16 or less, IIRC.
( Our Hermes had de-rated engines, using 100 octane, so we normally flew at around F/L 10.0 with the cabin pressurised to 2 or 3,000 ft. raising the cabin altitude for Nairobi.)
Perhaps the voyage report stating that he had not had suitable rest, written by the Captain before his Hermes aircraft G-ALDJ crashed at Blackbushe on 5th Nov 1956 may have influenced Parliament to introduce Flight Time Limitations in the U.K.
( I was required to have a medical if I exceeded 125 flying hours in a month. If fit, some said that I could do a further 125 hours...!)
Two Captains, two Flight Engineers, one First Officer, one Radio Officer and two Bunks were now required for a "Heavy Crew" who could, with Captain's discretion, be On Duty for 24 hours, but must be Scheduled for 16 or less, IIRC.
( Our Hermes had de-rated engines, using 100 octane, so we normally flew at around F/L 10.0 with the cabin pressurised to 2 or 3,000 ft. raising the cabin altitude for Nairobi.)
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WHAT HOPE FROM OUR ELECTED MPs & MEPs?
Good idea to have a concerted push by us professionals to awake our elected representatives to the impending disaster!
However, having just finished trawling through the very comprehensive book "The Great Deception" by Booker & North, I fear the damage may be done already and we will end up being well and truly shafted. (If you can't afford the time/cost etc, try the review on Amazon?)
The EU "Project" has since the early part of the last century been built on lies, half-truths, deception and moving the goalposts when the leaders didn't like the score.
Witness the recent habit of forcing electors to vote again if the peasants failed to vote "the right way".
Witness the fact that their accounts have failed to be signed off for more than a decade and the treatment of whistleblower Marta Andreasen who flagged up the evidence of fraud of OUR money on an astronomical scale.
I could go on but I trust the message is clear, as we drift into a supranational state more like the old communist autocracy from post WW11, our FTLs are only a small issue but one which we should fight with all our enthusiasm.
And yes, I have e-mailed my MEP, have you..................?
PS. Mods, should this thread be joined up with the pilots falling asleep thread, there appear to be too many postings with a common thrust?
However, having just finished trawling through the very comprehensive book "The Great Deception" by Booker & North, I fear the damage may be done already and we will end up being well and truly shafted. (If you can't afford the time/cost etc, try the review on Amazon?)
The EU "Project" has since the early part of the last century been built on lies, half-truths, deception and moving the goalposts when the leaders didn't like the score.
Witness the recent habit of forcing electors to vote again if the peasants failed to vote "the right way".
Witness the fact that their accounts have failed to be signed off for more than a decade and the treatment of whistleblower Marta Andreasen who flagged up the evidence of fraud of OUR money on an astronomical scale.
I could go on but I trust the message is clear, as we drift into a supranational state more like the old communist autocracy from post WW11, our FTLs are only a small issue but one which we should fight with all our enthusiasm.
And yes, I have e-mailed my MEP, have you..................?
PS. Mods, should this thread be joined up with the pilots falling asleep thread, there appear to be too many postings with a common thrust?
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Prior to ANY FTLs in Feb '56 we flew. as a single crew (Captain, F/O, F/E and R/O + Cabin crew) on a U.K. Government charter for the routine replacement of personnel between Salisbury (SR), Singapore and Lusaka (NR). Accommodation had been arranged by the Government for the passengers in Aden and Colombo ( each way).
We stayed on the Government's schedule for the 16 day trip. We flew for 119.10hours in 15 sectors but there could have been a further 3+ hours if we had needed to refuel at Karachi on our return flight. as well as outbound.
And that was a Government charter. LEGAL ? Yes, by the standards then current. SAFE (potentially) ? Not to today's standards, i'm sure.
I do not know just how much thought had been given. Many sectors were on routes with which we were unfamiliar.
The Captain was killed in the Blackbushe accident, some months later.
We stayed on the Government's schedule for the 16 day trip. We flew for 119.10hours in 15 sectors but there could have been a further 3+ hours if we had needed to refuel at Karachi on our return flight. as well as outbound.
And that was a Government charter. LEGAL ? Yes, by the standards then current. SAFE (potentially) ? Not to today's standards, i'm sure.
I do not know just how much thought had been given. Many sectors were on routes with which we were unfamiliar.
The Captain was killed in the Blackbushe accident, some months later.
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from the BALPA wakeup site:
Cathar, it is not the fact that anyone objects to there being a vote, but the indecent haste and vote regime that required 50%+1 votes to uphold the rejection of the proposals. Note also the timing of the debate and vote to be 1 day before a planned Air Traffic Control [almost] Eurpe-wide strike which will doubtless see many MEP's leaving the Parliament to return for the weekend before the vote takes place!
On Monday 30th September the Transport and Tourism Committee in the European Parliament voted to REJECT the EU’s Flight Time Limitations proposals. But the full European Parliament will now vote on the same issue on Wednesday 9th October - and there is hard work to be done to ensure they don’t reverse the Transport Committee’s vote.
The vote on 9th October will be by all MEPs on whether to adopt or reject the FTL proposals. It will require a majority of THE WHOLE PARLIAMENT to uphold the Committee’s vote. In other words, half of all the Members of the European Parliament need to show up and vote for rejection, if less than half turn, up it doesn’t matter what they vote, the proposals will go through. This is going to be tough. The rules are being forced through the Parliament by a ruthless and determined EU Commission who have utterly failed pilots and passengers. They need to be stopped.
This is the final countdown for BALPA members. We may have won a battle amongst the experts in the Transport and Tourism Committee, but members must now take this small window of opportunity to influence their own respective MEPs ahead of the plenary session. BALPA will be lobbying MEPs directly, but we need you to tell your own MEPs how you want them to vote.
The vote on 9th October will be by all MEPs on whether to adopt or reject the FTL proposals. It will require a majority of THE WHOLE PARLIAMENT to uphold the Committee’s vote. In other words, half of all the Members of the European Parliament need to show up and vote for rejection, if less than half turn, up it doesn’t matter what they vote, the proposals will go through. This is going to be tough. The rules are being forced through the Parliament by a ruthless and determined EU Commission who have utterly failed pilots and passengers. They need to be stopped.
This is the final countdown for BALPA members. We may have won a battle amongst the experts in the Transport and Tourism Committee, but members must now take this small window of opportunity to influence their own respective MEPs ahead of the plenary session. BALPA will be lobbying MEPs directly, but we need you to tell your own MEPs how you want them to vote.
Last edited by TopBunk; 5th Oct 2013 at 14:50.
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Would BALPA get together with any other strong EU pilots' union(s) and threaten to bring the network to a halt if this proposal goes through?
Desperate times need desperate measures, and shirley this is now the time?!
Desperate times need desperate measures, and shirley this is now the time?!
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The rules are being forced through the Parliament by a ruthless and determined EU Commission
It is the Parliament and not the Commission which detemines the dates for any debates and votes in the Parliament. I imagine it is fairly common for a motion to be refered to the next plenary session after it has been agreed by the relevant committee.
My understanding is that the three month scrutiny period ends in three weeks time. If the vote is not taken this week then there is only the plenary session in the week beginning 21 October in which a vote could be scheduled. You also have to remember that this will be only one amongst a very large number of issues under consideration by the Parliament that will need to be fitted into the Parliaments schedule. They will all be important to different groups of people.
The absolute majority required to prevent the adoption of such Regulations is again part on the normal legislative process and not something that has been introduced by the Commission for this particular vote.
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"That is complete and utter garbage."
If their past record on "democratic" voting and "procedures" is anything to go by, then it is NOT utter garbage.
We're discussing the modus operandi of a group of humans who have lost touch with reality and the democratically expressed wishes of their populations.
We're discussing the modus operandi of a group of humans who have lost touch with reality and the democratically expressed wishes of their populations.
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 5th Oct 2013 at 16:08.
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Cathar
This a response from one MEP
Now I don't know when the schedule was changed to add a plenary session for the 9th October, but at the very least it is very likely that many MEP's will have likewise made other arrangements believing there to be no need to be in Strasbourg that day. I stand by the BALPA comments.
This a response from one MEP
Unfortunately I shall not be in Strasbourg at all that week which is very unusual for me. I never miss votes on the Thursday I always wait until it is completed before going home. My absence is entirely due to arrangements I made quite a long time ago when the Schedule did not show a Plenary session that week. The Schedule has since been altered and I cannot change my arrangements, which is very unfortunate because I would have wished to support you.
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I stand by the BALPA comments.
I can see that there may be some issues with the timing of the Parliament's vote. However, all business which has been scheduled for next week will be affected. It is not a conspiracy against pilots.